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The economics are undeniable. I also think it means wages will not grow meaningfully for knowledge workers in urban locales, so you almost have no choice but to

The economics are undeniable. I also think it means wages will not grow meaningfully for knowledge workers in urban locales, so you almost have no choice but to go remote and move to a LCOL area to increase your real income.

quonn 3y ago
Unless you want to live in an area where entertainment and restaurants and specialized healthcare and all the other good things are plentiful.
- skrebbel 3y ago
  Yep, that stuff only exists in New York, London and the SF Bay Area. St Louis, Eindhoven and Bordeaux do not have hospitals, good restaurants and entertainment.
  - refulgentis 3y ago
    no
  - voidwtf 3y ago
    Metro areas are more expensive than rural areas. No reason to jump to extremes.
    - skrebbel 3y ago
      Fair. But in the context of remote tech work, SFBA salaries & costs of living is usually what’s being compared to, and you can get all that stuff in places that are not rural at all (such as the cities I mentioned) at a way lower cost of living.
- keenmaster 3y ago
  I don’t know why you’re being downvoted, this is true. However, as a suburbanite, I have no problem “commuting” to entertainment in the city once every weekend, when previously I had to commute 5 times a week for work. And when I go to the city, it’s a day full of fun/activities because I know I’m not coming back for a week. You can get the best of both worlds that way.
  - zappb 3y ago
    The suburbs aren’t necessarily a low cost of living area, especially suburbs of SF, NY, Seattle, etc. The LCOL areas would be more rural or non-coastal states in general.
    - keenmaster 3y ago
      It’s all relative. They’re LCOL on a per square foot basis, if you have a family or otherwise need more space.
  - johnnyanmac 3y ago
    depend on your social circle. I can barely get my local pals together for lunch once a week. no chance I can arrange a getaway downtown without planning weeks in advance.
- fullshark 3y ago
  The first two are more important when you are young and single. Junior employees working onsite in urban areas does seem to make the most sense.
  - quonn 3y ago
    They seem to be just as important when you‘re not single, maybe even more. Also the type of entertainment may change, but I think people like this at all ages.
    - fullshark 3y ago
      Everyone likes those things but if the way to get it is to live in a shoebox or send your kids to bad schools to accomplish it the price doesn’t seem as worth it. Yuppies getting married and moving to the suburbs to raise kids a pretty common eventuality.
- ymck 3y ago
  Or will those services/businesses pop up in new areas due to the shifting population?
voidwtf 3y ago
I think it’ll eventually lead to them being paid more, because now you can job search without as much risk to your current employment. Once we hit equilibrium again and demand outpaces availability then they’ll be forced to pay competitive wages or deal with attrition.
- echelon 3y ago
  Or they'll hire overseas and LCOL. Everything is supply and demand. Now workers are orders of magnitude more sourceable and fungible, meaning the supply went way up. Wages will stop going up and even start to slide backwards for new hires. I've already seen it. I was making just over $400k at my last job, and new positions at the same level aren't listed over $200k total comp. And if hypothetically AI brings down demand in the future (big if), then the wage curve is under even further pressure.
  - zappb 3y ago
    Companies already tried offshoring several years ago. It was a disaster for any core competencies, and companies already make extensive use of offshoring (and near shoring). This isn’t going to happen suddenly.
    - echelon 3y ago
      Education and talent is more widely distributed now, though.
    - RestlessMind 3y ago
      Several years ago, we didn't have remote working tools neither we had remote working cultural norms. All of those were forcibly established during the pandemic. So now is a different time for offshoring. I am seeing a lot of companies having headcount outside the US these days. If remote work works, then why even bother paying someone in the US?
  - voidwtf 3y ago
    You’re not wrong, but I’m not talking about the highest end of the spectrum. I’m saying that as a whole I believe the employees will benefit. There are many that are underpaid right now because of wages scaled to the employees location. California and New York workers will lose out, I think the rest of us will see an increase when this normalization occurs.
seydor 3y ago
sounds great

quonn 3y ago

Unless you want to live in an area where entertainment and restaurants and specialized healthcare and all the other good things are plentiful.

skrebbel 3y ago
Yep, that stuff only exists in New York, London and the SF Bay Area. St Louis, Eindhoven and Bordeaux do not have hospitals, good restaurants and entertainment.
- refulgentis 3y ago
  no
- voidwtf 3y ago
  Metro areas are more expensive than rural areas. No reason to jump to extremes.
  - skrebbel 3y ago
    Fair. But in the context of remote tech work, SFBA salaries & costs of living is usually what’s being compared to, and you can get all that stuff in places that are not rural at all (such as the cities I mentioned) at a way lower cost of living.
keenmaster 3y ago
I don’t know why you’re being downvoted, this is true. However, as a suburbanite, I have no problem “commuting” to entertainment in the city once every weekend, when previously I had to commute 5 times a week for work. And when I go to the city, it’s a day full of fun/activities because I know I’m not coming back for a week. You can get the best of both worlds that way.
- zappb 3y ago
  The suburbs aren’t necessarily a low cost of living area, especially suburbs of SF, NY, Seattle, etc. The LCOL areas would be more rural or non-coastal states in general.
  - keenmaster 3y ago
    It’s all relative. They’re LCOL on a per square foot basis, if you have a family or otherwise need more space.
- johnnyanmac 3y ago
  depend on your social circle. I can barely get my local pals together for lunch once a week. no chance I can arrange a getaway downtown without planning weeks in advance.
fullshark 3y ago
The first two are more important when you are young and single. Junior employees working onsite in urban areas does seem to make the most sense.
- quonn 3y ago
  They seem to be just as important when you‘re not single, maybe even more. Also the type of entertainment may change, but I think people like this at all ages.
  - fullshark 3y ago
    Everyone likes those things but if the way to get it is to live in a shoebox or send your kids to bad schools to accomplish it the price doesn’t seem as worth it. Yuppies getting married and moving to the suburbs to raise kids a pretty common eventuality.
ymck 3y ago
Or will those services/businesses pop up in new areas due to the shifting population?

voidwtf 3y ago

I think it’ll eventually lead to them being paid more, because now you can job search without as much risk to your current employment. Once we hit equilibrium again and demand outpaces availability then they’ll be forced to pay competitive wages or deal with attrition.

echelon 3y ago
Or they'll hire overseas and LCOL. Everything is supply and demand. Now workers are orders of magnitude more sourceable and fungible, meaning the supply went way up. Wages will stop going up and even start to slide backwards for new hires. I've already seen it. I was making just over $400k at my last job, and new positions at the same level aren't listed over $200k total comp. And if hypothetically AI brings down demand in the future (big if), then the wage curve is under even further pressure.
- zappb 3y ago
  Companies already tried offshoring several years ago. It was a disaster for any core competencies, and companies already make extensive use of offshoring (and near shoring). This isn’t going to happen suddenly.
  - echelon 3y ago
    Education and talent is more widely distributed now, though.
  - RestlessMind 3y ago
    Several years ago, we didn't have remote working tools neither we had remote working cultural norms. All of those were forcibly established during the pandemic. So now is a different time for offshoring. I am seeing a lot of companies having headcount outside the US these days. If remote work works, then why even bother paying someone in the US?
- voidwtf 3y ago
  You’re not wrong, but I’m not talking about the highest end of the spectrum. I’m saying that as a whole I believe the employees will benefit. There are many that are underpaid right now because of wages scaled to the employees location. California and New York workers will lose out, I think the rest of us will see an increase when this normalization occurs.

seydor 3y ago

sounds great