11 ms·
Why Is Game Writing So Terrible? (2021)
- firtoz 3y agoHorizon zero dawn has great writing and storytelling too
- tyleo 3y agoAgreed, some of the best in any game I’ve played. The Last of Us and Witcher 3 also have excellent writing.
- wharvle 3y agoPiling on the H:ZD love. Sequel ain’t awful, either. Kentucky Route Zero is maybe the most literary game I’ve played, if that makes sense. Damn good.
- corethree 3y agoDisco Elysium is pretty literary.
- Andrew_nenakhov 3y agoTry Betrayal at Krondor (1993).
- bluefirebrand 3y agoInteresting example, considering it was written by an actual novelist, who also published the novel for the game: "Krondor: The Betrayal" Raymond E Feist became one of my favorite fantasy authors for a long time because of Betrayal at Krondor
- Andrew_nenakhov 3y agoI just understood that this game is not 20 but 30 years old. Oh man...
- KittenInABox 3y agoI have some mixed feelings. I thoroughly loved and was heavily invested in horizon zero dawn. But I don't know if I would describe it as great writing. Many of the characters were pretty one-dimensional and forgettable. Aloy herself is just another chosen one story. The antagonists are by and large cartoonish in their manner. I do want to emphasize I really enjoyed the game and felt the way it was laid out to be way more enjoyable than, say, Skyrim. I don't know about the Witcher 3: it basically opened with softcore porn and I was immediately too turned off to continue with it. Several people who are huge fans of it later told me the wank bank material is pretty much an essential part of the Witcher experience, so I filed it away as a similar cache of any number of romance books on Amazon. Which, to be clear, makes a ton of money, isn't easy to pull off consistently as a product, etc etc. I just don't know if I would consider it great literature.
- wharvle 3y agoLike an average HBO series, then. Open with a bunch of sex, maybe tell a good story after (with, occasionally, more sex, sometimes with plot mixed into it).
- KittenInABox 3y agoI also don't think "average HBO series" and "excellent writing" are in the same significance though, don't you agree? [Unless you're saying that HBO productions are so consistently good that their average series is excellent?] That's all I'm saying. I'm not saying they're bad. I just have mixed feelings if they should be considered "excellent".
- wharvle 3y agoOh, no, lots of them aren’t great. A few are (The Wire…) and some more are at least pretty good. [edit] also I think there are a lot of different definitions of “good” in this thread. The average HBO show probably does have better writing than 99% of narrative-presenting video games.
- kranke155 3y ago
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- snitch182 3y agoI am getting a 503 ... its been hackernewsed ...
- pwillia7 3y agoI think the bad writing, especially for AAA games is an industry brand/growth problem. How many more people would play video games now if they could really see them as non-linear interactive Scorsese movies instead of more akin to the plots their kids are watching in cartoons? Also -- maybe there's some problem with how we think about traditional stories/writing where the author fully guides the reader and interactive experiences like video games. The best video game stories I have as an avid lifelong gamer are from the emergent story games like Dwarf Fortress Rimworld caves of qud, kenshi, etc where I really feel ownership of the story and its not the same as everyone else's story who played the same game. If the story quality in an 50 hour more story driven video game was higher though, I might still devote time to do that stuff these days, but as it is I almost never play story driven games except a few indie titles a year.
- corethree 3y agoThat's just you. Baldurs gate 3 has proven otherwise. Writing matter for a lot of people.
- bluefirebrand 3y agoThe writing in Baldur's Gate 3 is extremely overrated. When I finally played it I couldn't believe that this was what people were holding up as being a master class of game writing. It is on par with the Forgotten Realms young adult novels but that's not really a compliment.
- the__alchemist 3y agoI had this reaction to descriptions of Planescape Torment; Maybe it's a D&D thing.
- bluefirebrand 3y agoIt's something I've been saying for years honestly. Most game writing is bad. This has always been the case. The result is that gamers have very low expectations for the writing. And for many people now, their primary exposure to writing is through videogames and blockbuster movies, so they don't have any other baseline for comparing against. I also think that the quality of the execution matters more than the actual story. A lot of games have basically the same stories but one will be praised and the other not, because one executes the story better. Anyways, my main point is that standards for game writing is so low that really mediocre stuff gets a lot of praise by comparison to even worse stuff.
- tekla 3y agoAlong the same line of questioning: Why are so much movie and TV show scripts so bad? I keep asking myself, are these companies hiring 15yo children to write content for their Billion dollar projects? Because everyone is talking like they are teenagers.
- bombcar 3y agoBecause they’re designed for a common denominator audience. It takes exceptional skill to make a multi-layered script that talks at various levels. It’s rare enough that we’re shocked when we encounter it - perhaps in older kids movies, maybe in things like the Lego movie. It’s much easier to rewrite various similar stories with various tropes mixed in. Not to say these are not enjoyable! Many times you just want to see the same story different this time. Think of all the romance novels pumped out that have the same basic plot, but the people who read them demand more and more.
- paulryanrogers 3y agoThe mean which captures the most eyes is probably a plot that teens find interesting. Too basic and adults tune out. Too advanced and teens, young adults, and less intelligent or committed adults will turn it off.
- corethree 3y agoI feel in the last decade they've been really good in terms of writing. Shows like game of thrones and the flash are great examples of exemplary writing.
- j4yav 3y agoMaybe it’s just that it is everywhere but I haven’t been able to really get much out of Marvel style writing for a long time.
- corethree 3y agoI was joking a bit. Flash is part of DC. The writing on that series is atrocious. I didn't really comment on marvel. MCU is good writing. Tony Stark especially is just well written. The movies are obviously not works of literature. Super heros are a genre and within that genre the writing is excellent. The writers fulfilled the role well.
- Ygg2 3y agoNeeds 2021 in title. Also Rest in peace Shamus Young :(
- otikik 3y agoYes, he was a king. I particularly enjoyed his procedural generation series.
- bluefirebrand 3y agoShoot.. I didn't know he had passed. I read his stuff for years and years, listened to a podcast he had with a couple of people. I fell off a while ago but I didn't know he died. That's awful news to me.
- motohagiography 3y agoare there any literary authors who have moved into game development the way musicians have?
- halgir 3y agoGeorge RR Martin famously contributed to Elden Ring's lore and worldbuilding.
- Andrew_nenakhov 3y agoGRRM would contribute to anything so that he has a valid excuse to not finish the books.
- ptsneves 3y agoJust would like to say that actually the other way happened. Litrpg is a new book genre based on game mechanics. Very dynamic community with lots of amateurs. I would connect it with the pulp fiction movement of the XX century.
- Ekaros 3y agoBig problem for me with LitRPG I have read, mostly Korean and Chinese is that the system they have wouldn't actually work in games... Game mechanics are there, but they really aren't believable as games would be. In sense that these games would never have the popularity among the average players. Maybe worst tropes is one of the kind hero classes... With massive investment in them. What if one of those players simply quits or gets in accident? All the effort gone?
- _teyd 3y agoBecause the people who buy them don’t think it’s terrible, or at least not enough of a problem to get them to not buy them. And anyway it’s subjective, it’s a form with tropes and some people just love a game (or movie, or tv show) that delivers on that even if it’s “bad writing.” And there’s nothing wrong with that.
- lenkite 3y agoThey are not playing the right games. RPG games like pillars of eternity, dragon age, baldurs gate, mass-effect, etc have excellent story-lines. Your first person shooter demographic does not care about writing and hence neither will the publisher.
- Andrew_nenakhov 3y agoShamus had a very extensive 50+ part series on why Mass Effect 2&3 were terrible and didn't live up to the potential of the first game. [0] I was sad when he died. [0]: https://www.shamusyoung.com/twentysidedtale/?p=27792 https://www.shamusyoung.com/twentysidedtale/?p=27792
- Ygg2 3y ago> I was sad when he died. I was so happy when I saw update on his YouTube channel after a long, long while. Then I realize it was his funeral. Man the gut punch hurt me physically.
- bluefirebrand 3y agoI remember reading this while it was coming out and feeling like Shamus was writing words I had in my heart but could not articulate with my head. This series genuinely changed how I look at videogame writing and while I still enjoy games like Mass Effect 2, I don't think I would ever try and defend their writing.
- morelisp 3y agoI find FPS writing is often a lot better, probably because there is a lot less of it. Yes, RPGs have a more narrative focus so more nuance to characters or whatever but you're asking a committee of 1-5 usually mid-tier writers to pump out 2-10 novels worth of text within a year under often radically changing requirements. The actual writing is usually hot garbage.
- corethree 3y agoIt depends on the RPG. Pokemon vs. Disco Elysium. Botw vs. Planescape torment. Rpgs do not universally have good/bad writing. And FPSs like BioShock and soma don't all necessarily have less writing..
- dooopdoop 3y ago[dead]
- Mountain_Skies 3y agoHas it ever been good across the industry? I'm not a big gamer but have been playing lots of retro games lately, including old text adventures, and most of it reads like really terrible fan fiction. Back when CD drives were still new tech, there were many experimental attempts at creating interactive games that were more story telling of the "Choose Your Own Adventure" type than video games with a unifying plot. Not that most of those stories were great but it did seem like for them it was story first, perhaps because the tech was still primitive enough that the story had to make up for it.
- coffeebeqn 3y agoThere are a handful of have with notable writing from Back in the day but most that I replay have writing along the lines of “ninjas have kidnapped the president” (a real example)
- pessimizer 3y agoBecause the people making them have absolutely nothing to say. The writing is a pretentious sideshow to wrap the game with, like the plot in a movie musical (or in a porno.) To get around vice laws, they used to have naked women paint themselves like Roman statues and strike poses on stage, or read Shakespeare. Alcoholic drinks were sold by the gallon as "health tonics." It's a sign of the decadence we find ourselves in that the pretense becomes honestly mistaken for the actual purpose, rather than something that merchants say and customers smirk at. Even worse, since the vast bulk of the information we have about the past comes from marketing material of various sorts, we simply assume that the world was populated by rubes who just slurped it up. They weren't as shrewd as we are, wondering why the plots of video games are stupid. I can't wait until generative AI eliminates the entire narrative industry: "Alexa, tell me a story about the war that glorifies the EU and also implies that the CIA is the shadowy unappreciated force that is holding together an unruly human race." "Cortana, make me a zombie video game that's really about depression, but offers no answers."
- everdrive 3y agoThis is just simply not true. Whatever you may think of their efforts, there are many people trying to say deep and profound things via the medium of games. I don't particularly like some of the heavy-handed messages in a lot of indie games. But it's clear that the creators really have specific and deep ideas they're intending to convey. Same with something mainstream like the new God of War game. Again, it's not something I particularly enjoyed. But the writers clearly put a lot of time and effort into it, and wanted to convey specific themes and ideas. At this point, it's a settled question whether people are putting effort into games as art, and the only real question is "which games succeed?"
- everdrive 3y agoI think a lot of the time game acting and character modeling is actually worse than the writing itself. To me, there was an uncanny valley when voice acting became the standard. A lot of performances degrade the script itself, whatever you think of the script. It also makes me think of Harrison Ford's line about the Star Wars movies. "George! You can type this shit, but you sure can't say it! Move your mouth when you're typing!" This isn't quite what Harrison Ford meant, but it feels like a lot of writing feels worse when it has to be acted and performed. When I just read it, my mind fills in the blanks, so to speak, and the "performance" feels more natural. This is also a bit of an aside, but I also find it incredibly distracting when people in some made-up fantasy world happen to emote and speak just like trendy people today. "Oh, these hardened warriors, who have had a life wholly unlike anything I've ever experienced speak just like American actors in a movie made after 2020."
- whstl 3y agoOh, god, a million times yes. To me it’s the same with almost anything by Disney. It’s too over the top and old fashioned to me. Also, as a foreigner, it’s funny when I watch dubbed movies that have an actor from my country: either the actor does the dub and it sticks like a sore thumb (or rather, makes the others sound fake), or they get a “pro” that doesn’t sound like a normal person (and being familiar with the actor makes it harder to watch).
- kdamica 3y agoI’m one of those people who skips all the cutscenes. Very few games have stories interesting enough to pay attention to outside of what they show you through gameplay. If I want a good story I’ll watch a movie or read a book. To me games are for the interactivity.
- feverzsj 3y agoWhat if it's unskippable?
- kdamica 3y agoI don’t play it! I refunded Jedi Fallen Order for this reason. The plot was so boring but the game seemed not to know it. At this point I just don’t play too many AAA games so it’s not a big problem for me.
- donatj 3y agoI didn't used to be a person who skipped cutscenes, and I thought they were ridiculous. In my old age with time ever at more of a premium, I just don't care anymore. If you want to tell the story, tell it in engine in an interactive exciting way. You're in an interactive medium. Having a cutscene in a game is like having a text scroll in a movie. It's lazy, it's awkward, and it's a step down the media ladder that screams we had something we wanted to say but didn't want to pay to do it right. If I have to sit and watch a movie just to get back to the game at large, that's not fun. Tell the story through important missions, in-game dialogue. Heck, at the very least Metal Gear Solid 4 let me adjust the camera during cutscenes so I could zoom in and look at things, look for things off screen. That kept my attention. Do anything other than just making me just watch a movie. Even the much maligned QTEs at least manage to keep my eyes off my phone. If I wanted a non-interactive medium I've got plenty of better options.
- kibwen 3y ago> I didn't used to be a person who skipped cutscenes, and I thought they were ridiculous. Amusingly, I didn't used to be a person who defended games with elaborate non-interactive cutscenes, and I thought they were ridiculous. In my old age, I realize that on the infinite parameter-space of artistic expression, there's a wide spectrum between "100% passively-consumed movie" and "100% interactive game". There's no reason to put interactivity on a pedestal; works of art (yes, I'm being generous by blanket-describing games as works of art, but it's true) are free to express themselves in a wide variety of ways, and while I think it's still folly for AAA gamedevs to chase Hollywood out of a lack of creativity, I no longer believe that cutscenes are inherently a bad thing.
- password54321 3y agoRather annoying title that tries to make opinion come off as fact and a whole lot of paragraphs just to make their opinion seem 'right'. Many will simply disagree and they are even making successful TV adaptations of games now, the current prime example being The Last of Us.
- kibwen 3y agoFTA: The Last of Us, Portal 2, and Borderlands 2 were all bolstered by the widespread praise of their writing. > a whole lot of paragraphs just to make their opinion seem 'right' Yes, that's the process by which people use essays to make arguments.
- password54321 3y agoThank you for the defensive comment. So what are we arguing exactly? There is difference between stating an opinion and arguing. Is anyone supposed to now be convinced that writing in games is bad?
- underlipton 3y agoA lot of well-written, high-budget games are detested by the gaming community because the themes or conclusions the game centers on are anathema to them. Final Fantasy XVI and Bioshock: Infinite come to mind. Many developers correctly ascertain that focusing on the quality of the writing is a waste of time and effort if they're not targeting a particular audience, rather than aiming for sales in the multi-millions. Good writing is often challenging, and pairing that intellectual challenge with the tactical/strategic/visceral challenge of gameplay can be overwhelming. Spec Ops: The Line is a good example of this: players work their way through a grueling gauntlet only to be asked to deeply question their efforts, and even their enjoyment of the game itself. You just expended a massive amount of effort to do what the game told you to do, and now the game is telling you, the player, off for it. If art is a matter of curation of experience, then such an approach is maximalism that's bound to turn some off.
- GuB-42 3y agoGame writing in particular is particularly hard because games are interactive. In a movie or a novel, the authors have full control of the story, every choice the characters do can be set to best advance the story, to create dramatic tension, etc... Same thing for how skilled the character is, the outcome of fights, etc... In a game, at least some aspects are decided by player actions, all of them need to be taken into account. So authors essentially needs to write much more than it is seen, and some of them may be hard to make exciting. Of course, games use all sorts of tricks to give the illusion of choice so that the story is going the way the authors want while at the same time the player thinks he is doing something. But it also adds to difficulty. And not only that, when you are reading a book, you are expected to read, when watching a movie, you are expected to sit down and watch, but when playing a game, especially an action game, you are supposed to play, and reading lots of text and watching long cutscenes is annoying to many players. So you have to either integrate the story to the action or pack a lot of information in as little as possible dialogue or short cutscenes. Again, it adds to the difficulty of story writing. Several solutions here. Either you go the visual novel route. Some are games in name only, where the player has effectively no agency. And unsurprisingly, with that pesky player out of the way, the good ones make for the best stories. Some games focus on agency, making your choices matter, but often the story and other aspects of the game are limited. It can also result in really expensive games, which matters because when you are making an expensive game, you have investors who want a return on their investment, and you usually have to play it safe and can't really try wild ideas that may fail commercially. And there is the "Doom" approach, where there is a "story", but it is designed to be as unobtrusive as possible not to distract from the main objective of the game, that is shooting stuff.
- foinker 3y agoYes the writing is often an afterthought and besides the point, but most of the games people are listing here are kind of proving the author's point, especially BG3. Games with great stories sell better and have a longer shelf life than games with bad stories, so there's no reason not to invest in quality writing. Look at what's happening with Starfield.
- j4yav 3y agoWhen my tentacle friend showed up with his shirt off and tried to seduce me, the latest in a long line of everyone I met trying to bang me, I knew I was in the presence of greatness. Kidding aside I wouldn’t say bg3 was any better than pulp dnd books I read as a kid. They did that style well, and I enjoyed it, and I think it’s more or less what the audience wanted. It’s no Kubrick or Scorsese tier story, though, let’s be real.
- foinker 3y agoIt was a pretty horny game, no question, but I think when people say BG3 has a great story, they mean that the combination of non-linear story, huge cast of oddball characters, lively and interesting settings, little side story beats sprinkled around which makes your playthrough a little different from your friends, vocal performances, mood, animation, sound design and the actual gameplay mechanics all came together into an experience that people really really connected with. It doesn't have to be Kubrick, but I think the author's point is that narrative AAA games disproportionately suffer from bad writing which harms the perception of the games' overall quality, and that writing is actually a worthwhile investment.
- j4yav 3y agoI liked the game, it was a lot of fun. It really came together like playing out one of those pulp Forgotten Realms books I had, which was really cool. I guess all I was trying to say is that those weren’t necessarily great writing, even though I loved them.
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- antiraza 3y agoThere's great writing in games. I've experienced writing in games that's moved me to tears, and this is going back decades. There's 'terrible' writing in a lot of high budget, usually mass-appeal market games. I would argue that's true of any medium -- films, books, theater, even music.
- bee_rider 3y agoGame storytelling is different from movie storytelling and that’s fine. Most of your time with a character in a game is not spent performing the actions written in the script. The character doesn’t mostly live in the script, they mostly live in the gameplay and the environment interactions. It is a different type of storytelling, just like movies and books are different.
- jsbisviewtiful 3y agoGameplay problems aside, part of why I stopped playing Square Enix games is because of how incredibly awful the dialog can be in many of their titles. Kingdom Hearts is gibberish on repeat for 30+ hours and Final Fantasy is usually sexist and or racist gibberish for 70+ hours. Not worth it.