5 ms·

The reason iPad is good is not because you're not allowed to choose what browser engine to use. It's, largely, because the hardware is simply better than anythi

by jchw 3y ago

The reason iPad is good is not because you're not allowed to choose what browser engine to use. It's, largely, because the hardware is simply better than anything else on the market. I think it is amusing that there is a contingent of Apple fans that actually believe the platform will get significantly worse because people are allowed to sideload and install browsers that have their own browser engines. I think this is a truly ridiculous line of argument. I don't like the other line of argument, which goes somewhere along the lines of "We should tolerate Microsoft-esque anti-competitive behavior because otherwise Google Chrome's anti-competitive behavior might win", but that is literally a better argument, to be fair.

seanmcdirmid 3y ago
We know it will because we remember what life was like before. Sucky platforms that were never good enough, always some weird piece of software that you thought was benign gunking up your system. It really did suck. And then…most of the problems were gone and things just worked. I’m ok if this is actually all optional, but I don’t think the anti-Apple crowd is going to be content until iOS is just another Windows. That somehow it won’t just be an unlock that we have buy into and know what we’re are getting into.
- ChrisLTD 3y ago
  Why can’t iOS be more like MacOS instead of going all the way to being like Windows?
- CamperBob2 3y ago
  Man, that Plato guy knew what he was talking about. Try to rescue the prisoners from the cave and they'll fight like wildcats to get back in.
  - seanmcdirmid 3y ago
    Because what we really need are less choices to save us right? “Look at all those poor sheeple buying Apple rather than a more open platform, they shouldn’t be making that choice so let’s take it away from them.”
    - ephemeral-life 3y ago
      If their bad choices have negative effects on others, for example developers being exploited, then yes the choice should be made for them. It's the same as smoking or drinking. When you smoke, there are harmful effects to third parties so the government limits the use of those products. When millions of people make choices that lead to millions of other people being exploited, governments should get involved. That is the entire point of modern legal systems. Free markets until negative externalities become out of control and then the government steps in.
      - spiderice 3y ago
        The idea that iOS has been a negative for developers is a hilarious one. Funny that all those poor developers choose to develop on iOS before android because that’s where the money is.
        ephemeral-life 3y ago
        Is it though? Before the iphone desktops were king. On desktops - developers could use any programming language and there was a standard language that was well supported on pretty much all systems (C), so no need to learn 4 different language ecosystems to target different platforms if you arent a language nerd. - you could release your software to users under any licence you see fit. - Software SDK's billed with flat fee's instead of revenue sharing. - Developers could develop in any environment and didn't have to depend on heavy, buggy IDE's. - Cross compilation for other systems was common. You didn't need a system from the target vendor to build and distribute software (although for testing purposes it was still common). - There weren't arbitrary rules on how you are allowed to monetize your software. The developer experience since the release of mobile systems has dramatically decreased. To say that is not true is just naive. These electronic markets will form no matter what. If apple and google was wiped of the face of the earth today, new markets will form within months. Apple and Google act like the markets are their God given property but in reality they are piggy backing off their first mover's advantage. Honestly, i feel sad to see your type of attitude on HackerNews.
- jchw 3y ago
  Yeah see, where I don't see eye-to-eye on here is the idea that Windows is bad because it lets you download and run whatever you want. I don't agree at all. I think Windows is just bad, and in fact, it gets worse as they try to push for an Apple-esque App Store model and slowly add roadblocks to """side-loading""" (or as we called it in my youth, "installing software".) Likewise, I don't think that's what makes iOS good, either. I don't think it ever was. I think that it's understandable that Apple's approach to this would in fact be to make a "walled garden", especially given that it is wildly profitable, but Apple already had beloved computers long before they started doing stuff like this. Yes, to be sure, the Macintosh had and has plenty of flaws, but I do not think that anyone's goal is to turn iOS into Windows, and Apple would retain a visegrip on the iOS experience just due to how locked down modern operating systems are. Immutable image based operating systems with heavy restrictions on what usermode apps can do are going to be inherently much more stable, even when faced with untrusted usermode apps. The thing is, while I get why I and others get categorized as part of the "anti-Apple" crowd, it's not because I simply hate Apple for no reason whatsoever. Like many others, I desperately wanted to like Apple, and then they just crapped all over what I consider to be my demographic of users. Please understand: to me, I am not THAT loyal to ANY vendor. I am a user of computers first and foremost. But what's worse is, I have to deal with the knock-on effects of this. My biggest pet issue is absolutely their tirade against patent-unencumbered formats like Opus, which impacts people I know who prefer iPhone because it's all they've ever known. "How can I get WebMs to play in Discord/My web browser/etc?" You own a computer where the manufacturer decided that you're not allowed to install codecs or alternate browser engines, so you can basically go fuck yourself. "Bicycles of the mind" my ass. In any case, I think there is no slippery slope here. Apple is not going to volunteer control of their ecosystem away, so god knows they're going to do the minimum necessary to comply with any of this. So I think the impact on the overall iOS ecosystem will probably not be that substantial once all is said and done. Even on Android, app stores outside of the Play Store are relatively rare, and attempts to circumvent the Play Store for the purposes of making more money haven't done very well. Even on Windows, it's hard to compete with or avoid selling on Steam, because it's got so much momentum and users generally like it as a platform for buying games on. Apple has more than a level playing field, they have a decade head start, total control over the platform, and so much more; They are far from at risk of control slipping. If they're worried about anything, it is probably quarterly financial reports not being as good as they possibly could be.
- rezonant 3y ago
  > Sucky platforms that were never good enough, always some weird piece of software that you thought was benign gunking up your system. This is a category error. Your iPhone isn't more stable because Apple charges a premium to developers so that they can invite you to use their apps, it's more stable because of all of the good decisions they make technically around the platform. Your iPhone isn't more stable because Apple refuses to allow competition to their apps. Just like you mentioned elsewhere, if you don't want third party apps, do not install them. Please do not come for my freedom to run the apps I please. Don't piss on me and call it rain. Your Mac is also a very nice experience, but Apple isn't gouging and restricting the developers of your favorite Mac apps (much), so no one is complaining about MacOS.
  - scarface_74 3y ago
    And Zoom installed a secret backdoor web server on the Mac…
    - rezonant 3y ago
      Welp, company did stupid thing, time to let the OS company have 100% control and profit over the entire computer. A bit of an outsized response, no? To be clear, I disagree with Zoom's rationale (avoiding a single confirmation click when the zoom website launches zoom), and I agree with Apple automatically disabling that server for it's customers. That doesn't mean I think we should throw the baby out with the bathwater.
      - scarface_74 3y ago
        No, it isn’t. It’s been proven over three decades of computing that companies - even reputable ones - will do all sorts of crap to your computer. I’m very careful what I install on my computers. I will install any random crap on iOS devices that I would never install on my computer because they are sandboxed. Not purposefully, but there was a version of Chrome where the installer would leave your Mac inoperable if you had System Integrity Protection turned off. https://support.google.com/chrome/thread/15235262/chrome-update-impacts-some-macos-systems?hl=en https://support.google.com/chrome/thread/15235262/chrome-upd... Both Google and Facebook encouraged iOS users to install developer certificates that were meant for internal employees so they could track them. Epic, the biggest whiner about App Store policies, caused a huge security vulnerability when Android users side loaded Fortnite https://www.cnet.com/tech/mobile/just-as-critics-feared-fortnite-for-android-came-with-an-epic-security-risk/ https://www.cnet.com/tech/mobile/just-as-critics-feared-fort... Not to mention the old school rootkits that Sony installed back in the day https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sony_BMG_copy_protection_rootkit_scandalHave https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sony_BMG_copy_protection_roo... It should be hard and require users to jump through hoops to allow apps to break out of sandboxes
- ankurdhama 3y ago
  Why do people think that iOS will become like Windows when we all know that iOS (and Android) were designed with app sandboxing from start and not like Windows where a program can do anything it wants to.
  - pbh101 3y ago
    EU could decide next that app sandboxing is anticompetitive restrictive gatekeeper behavior and force Apple to change that too. It too violates the ‘it is my hardware let me do what I want’ ethos expressed in this comment section.
    - nulld3v 3y ago
      And they should because full access to your own electronics should be a right, not a privilege. Android already provides the option to root their phones and no reasonable user would go through the process to root their phone! Even iOS had jailbreaks for a long time and exactly what kind of harm has that brought to the iOS ecosystem? Zero. Nothing. The process to root/jailbreak definitely should not be an easy process because most users should definitely not be doing it. But it must exist.
pharmakom 3y ago
The hardware is better because of RnD, funded by high margins due to software lock-in. Not sure why people struggle to see the connection here.
- jchw 3y ago
  Nobody "struggles" to see something that you literally made up. The original iPhone and iPad were literally global news and that happened before they ever did anything like this. I am sure it made them a rich company, but they were going to be rich anyways. They also hoard money like fucking crazy, so it's not like it's all getting spent on R&D.

by jchw 3y ago

seanmcdirmid 3y ago

We know it will because we remember what life was like before. Sucky platforms that were never good enough, always some weird piece of software that you thought was benign gunking up your system. It really did suck. And then…most of the problems were gone and things just worked. I’m ok if this is actually all optional, but I don’t think the anti-Apple crowd is going to be content until iOS is just another Windows. That somehow it won’t just be an unlock that we have buy into and know what we’re are getting into.

ChrisLTD 3y ago
Why can’t iOS be more like MacOS instead of going all the way to being like Windows?
CamperBob2 3y ago
Man, that Plato guy knew what he was talking about. Try to rescue the prisoners from the cave and they'll fight like wildcats to get back in.
- seanmcdirmid 3y ago
  Because what we really need are less choices to save us right? “Look at all those poor sheeple buying Apple rather than a more open platform, they shouldn’t be making that choice so let’s take it away from them.”
  - ephemeral-life 3y ago
    If their bad choices have negative effects on others, for example developers being exploited, then yes the choice should be made for them. It's the same as smoking or drinking. When you smoke, there are harmful effects to third parties so the government limits the use of those products. When millions of people make choices that lead to millions of other people being exploited, governments should get involved. That is the entire point of modern legal systems. Free markets until negative externalities become out of control and then the government steps in.
    - spiderice 3y ago
      The idea that iOS has been a negative for developers is a hilarious one. Funny that all those poor developers choose to develop on iOS before android because that’s where the money is.
      - ephemeral-life 3y ago
        Is it though? Before the iphone desktops were king. On desktops - developers could use any programming language and there was a standard language that was well supported on pretty much all systems (C), so no need to learn 4 different language ecosystems to target different platforms if you arent a language nerd. - you could release your software to users under any licence you see fit. - Software SDK's billed with flat fee's instead of revenue sharing. - Developers could develop in any environment and didn't have to depend on heavy, buggy IDE's. - Cross compilation for other systems was common. You didn't need a system from the target vendor to build and distribute software (although for testing purposes it was still common). - There weren't arbitrary rules on how you are allowed to monetize your software. The developer experience since the release of mobile systems has dramatically decreased. To say that is not true is just naive. These electronic markets will form no matter what. If apple and google was wiped of the face of the earth today, new markets will form within months. Apple and Google act like the markets are their God given property but in reality they are piggy backing off their first mover's advantage. Honestly, i feel sad to see your type of attitude on HackerNews.
jchw 3y ago
Yeah see, where I don't see eye-to-eye on here is the idea that Windows is bad because it lets you download and run whatever you want. I don't agree at all. I think Windows is just bad, and in fact, it gets worse as they try to push for an Apple-esque App Store model and slowly add roadblocks to """side-loading""" (or as we called it in my youth, "installing software".) Likewise, I don't think that's what makes iOS good, either. I don't think it ever was. I think that it's understandable that Apple's approach to this would in fact be to make a "walled garden", especially given that it is wildly profitable, but Apple already had beloved computers long before they started doing stuff like this. Yes, to be sure, the Macintosh had and has plenty of flaws, but I do not think that anyone's goal is to turn iOS into Windows, and Apple would retain a visegrip on the iOS experience just due to how locked down modern operating systems are. Immutable image based operating systems with heavy restrictions on what usermode apps can do are going to be inherently much more stable, even when faced with untrusted usermode apps. The thing is, while I get why I and others get categorized as part of the "anti-Apple" crowd, it's not because I simply hate Apple for no reason whatsoever. Like many others, I desperately wanted to like Apple, and then they just crapped all over what I consider to be my demographic of users. Please understand: to me, I am not THAT loyal to ANY vendor. I am a user of computers first and foremost. But what's worse is, I have to deal with the knock-on effects of this. My biggest pet issue is absolutely their tirade against patent-unencumbered formats like Opus, which impacts people I know who prefer iPhone because it's all they've ever known. "How can I get WebMs to play in Discord/My web browser/etc?" You own a computer where the manufacturer decided that you're not allowed to install codecs or alternate browser engines, so you can basically go fuck yourself. "Bicycles of the mind" my ass. In any case, I think there is no slippery slope here. Apple is not going to volunteer control of their ecosystem away, so god knows they're going to do the minimum necessary to comply with any of this. So I think the impact on the overall iOS ecosystem will probably not be that substantial once all is said and done. Even on Android, app stores outside of the Play Store are relatively rare, and attempts to circumvent the Play Store for the purposes of making more money haven't done very well. Even on Windows, it's hard to compete with or avoid selling on Steam, because it's got so much momentum and users generally like it as a platform for buying games on. Apple has more than a level playing field, they have a decade head start, total control over the platform, and so much more; They are far from at risk of control slipping. If they're worried about anything, it is probably quarterly financial reports not being as good as they possibly could be.
rezonant 3y ago
> Sucky platforms that were never good enough, always some weird piece of software that you thought was benign gunking up your system. This is a category error. Your iPhone isn't more stable because Apple charges a premium to developers so that they can invite you to use their apps, it's more stable because of all of the good decisions they make technically around the platform. Your iPhone isn't more stable because Apple refuses to allow competition to their apps. Just like you mentioned elsewhere, if you don't want third party apps, do not install them. Please do not come for my freedom to run the apps I please. Don't piss on me and call it rain. Your Mac is also a very nice experience, but Apple isn't gouging and restricting the developers of your favorite Mac apps (much), so no one is complaining about MacOS.
- scarface_74 3y ago
  And Zoom installed a secret backdoor web server on the Mac…
  - rezonant 3y ago
    Welp, company did stupid thing, time to let the OS company have 100% control and profit over the entire computer. A bit of an outsized response, no? To be clear, I disagree with Zoom's rationale (avoiding a single confirmation click when the zoom website launches zoom), and I agree with Apple automatically disabling that server for it's customers. That doesn't mean I think we should throw the baby out with the bathwater.
    - scarface_74 3y ago
      No, it isn’t. It’s been proven over three decades of computing that companies - even reputable ones - will do all sorts of crap to your computer. I’m very careful what I install on my computers. I will install any random crap on iOS devices that I would never install on my computer because they are sandboxed. Not purposefully, but there was a version of Chrome where the installer would leave your Mac inoperable if you had System Integrity Protection turned off. https://support.google.com/chrome/thread/15235262/chrome-update-impacts-some-macos-systems?hl=en https://support.google.com/chrome/thread/15235262/chrome-upd... Both Google and Facebook encouraged iOS users to install developer certificates that were meant for internal employees so they could track them. Epic, the biggest whiner about App Store policies, caused a huge security vulnerability when Android users side loaded Fortnite https://www.cnet.com/tech/mobile/just-as-critics-feared-fortnite-for-android-came-with-an-epic-security-risk/ https://www.cnet.com/tech/mobile/just-as-critics-feared-fort... Not to mention the old school rootkits that Sony installed back in the day https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sony_BMG_copy_protection_rootkit_scandalHave https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sony_BMG_copy_protection_roo... It should be hard and require users to jump through hoops to allow apps to break out of sandboxes
ankurdhama 3y ago
Why do people think that iOS will become like Windows when we all know that iOS (and Android) were designed with app sandboxing from start and not like Windows where a program can do anything it wants to.
- pbh101 3y ago
  EU could decide next that app sandboxing is anticompetitive restrictive gatekeeper behavior and force Apple to change that too. It too violates the ‘it is my hardware let me do what I want’ ethos expressed in this comment section.
  - nulld3v 3y ago
    And they should because full access to your own electronics should be a right, not a privilege. Android already provides the option to root their phones and no reasonable user would go through the process to root their phone! Even iOS had jailbreaks for a long time and exactly what kind of harm has that brought to the iOS ecosystem? Zero. Nothing. The process to root/jailbreak definitely should not be an easy process because most users should definitely not be doing it. But it must exist.

pharmakom 3y ago

The hardware is better because of RnD, funded by high margins due to software lock-in. Not sure why people struggle to see the connection here.

jchw 3y ago
Nobody "struggles" to see something that you literally made up. The original iPhone and iPad were literally global news and that happened before they ever did anything like this. I am sure it made them a rich company, but they were going to be rich anyways. They also hoard money like fucking crazy, so it's not like it's all getting spent on R&D.