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If I knew the answer to that question I would be a high ranked politician. But for me it's important to keep in mind what he is saying here and also in another

If I knew the answer to that question I would be a high ranked politician. But for me it's important to keep in mind what he is saying here and also in another part explicitly: a diplomatic solution is possible and history proves that. So what I can do is reject the notion that what is happening is unavoidable.

noqc 3y ago
How does history prove any such thing? That's neither how history or proof work. Most of the wars that have been resolved to everyone's benefit have done so by the unconditional surrender of the aggressors, followed by amicable reconstruction.
- shakow 3y ago
  > How does history prove any such thing? Because there are Jews living in Germany nowadays?
  - sgift 3y ago
    ... after Germany was bombed to the ground and occupied for years. Only after that came the diplomatic efforts.
    - shakow 3y ago
      > after Germany was bombed to the ground and occupied for years Well, looks like that box is checked for Gaza; can we jump to diplomacy now?
      - avmich 3y ago
        Box is not checked yet, otherwise IDF wouldn't have any resistance. We should try diplomacy all the time, but right now the offer of Israel is unconditional surrender or continuation of hostilities. Maybe - maybe - less atrocious to civilians than what it was during March 1945 in Germany. Diplomats will keep their work; of course everybody's abilities are limited.
        shakow 3y ago
        > Box is not checked yet, otherwise IDF wouldn't have any resistance. That's a misqualification; Germany offered resistance up to the last day, Berlin didn't fall without a fight.
  - paulryanrogers 3y ago
    Are there Jews in Germany today because of diplomacy? Or because those who tried annihilating and enslaving most German Jews were removed from power by force?
  - noqc 3y ago
    After Germany surrendered unconditionally and was amicably reconstructed.
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
- Ozzie_osman 3y ago
  Who is the aggressor here?
  - gafferongames 3y ago
    Hamas on Oct 7th
    - Ozzie_osman 3y ago
      Many people would disagree if you look at the history starting from the Nakba.
      - gafferongames 3y ago
        [flagged]
        Ozzie_osman 3y ago
        Not sure how that easily Google-able question has anything to do with the discussion. Name one famous Israeli from more than 100 years ago. Name one famous American from more than 250 years ago. What am I proving by asking these questions?
        deleted 3y ago
        [deleted]
        runarberg 3y ago
        If Christopher Columbus can be Italian, then Jesus Christ can be considered a Palestinian.
        Zpalmtree 3y ago
        [flagged]
        peterashford 3y ago
        What is that question even for? What are you saying?
- locallost 3y ago
  It provides examples that it happened and thus proves it's possible.
  - noqc 3y ago
    I'm not convinced by the examples that you have listed (a conspicuously empty list at that), and examples are only evidence by analogy anyway. The reactivity of hydrogen is not proof of the reactivity of helium.
    - locallost 3y ago
      The list is empty if you haven't read what I originally posted and linked. Obviously you haven't. Politics is neither chemistry nor physics, it is what is referred to as the art of the impossible. Many nasty situations in the past seemed impossible to solve diplomatically, but it was made possible. No matter how bleak it might have looked. Again, refer to the link I posted that kicked off this discussion.
      - noqc 3y ago
        I assure you that I read the tweet, and the list remains utterly null. In a broader sense, I don't fault you for looking at war and thinking, or rather hoping, that in a just world, this wouldn't be the solution to any problem. It is unsettled whether or not humanity can create such a just world, but we certainly haven't done it yet. Requiring the unconditional surrender of Hamas through force is very much a reasonable and acceptable way forward.
        locallost 3y ago
        "And that's the cunning of history; when you're at the bottom, something can happen that gives hope. After the 1973 war, who would have thought that before the end of the decade, Egypt would sign a peace treaty with Israel?" so at least the list is obviously > 0. That's a good starting point for you to reconsider where else you've made a mistake.
saiya-jin 3y ago
Well, the alternative to diplomatic solution is total annihilation of palestinians in west bank, be it by forcing them off the land which is impossible since they have nowhere to run and other islamic states refuse them (so much for inter-muslim brotherhood, I guess Iran should take them), or murdering them one by one which seems to be going on now. Or what we had till now, which led to what we have now. It doesnt matter that the other side plays dirty, all sides eventually do. It just doesn't matter for statement above. It doesn't matter a nanofraction of a bit what government(s) publicly say, those are farts in the wind to be polite, I don't understand why people even care about such PR, its like what Putin says, what does it matter when its clearly said for a specific purpose and truth is optional? I honestly dont understand the resistance to their own state. Yes they will hate Israel, just like till now they did, just like every single its neighbor since its creation. So what? How did we/they move from this utter hate of neighbors to cca peace? Well certainly not by following the path of trying to eradicate the other, history is pretty clear there. Yes its a bit easier to invade and kill if you want compared to invading a foreign state, but preventing it should be a good thing. Also, US is effectively giving them a blank check, just empty words flying around, I really expected a bit more. A room for Russia or China to step up. Its like counting some destroyed tunnels or killing few brainwashed young guys mattered in long run, in same vein as say counting Vietcong losses and comparing them to US ones didn't matter. That's whats happening now. What's the plan for rest of existence? I dont see that part, I mean 0. But maybe current Israel government likes this situation, I mean the top guy is former special forces guy, so this is not unusual situation and a bit of blood doesn't matter to them and if there is war people don't focus so much on how effectively he erodes democracy. So what is this, state-sponsored genocide? Because 100% this is not how Hamas disappears for longer than few months (in same vein al qaeda didn't) and I think literally everybody involved realizes that, this will actually make it much stronger long term, think about all those eager volunteers from places like Saudi arabia. Soviet war was what created Osama. US invasion of Iraq is what pointed him to US. Suffice to say, when doing grocery shopping I don't buy products from Israel these days, we don't need more wars in middle east and massive refugees waves in Europe. Tiny wallet, but its all I have (apart from vacations but for that Israel was very low in the list anyway).
- vcryan 3y ago
krainboltgreene 3y ago
> If I knew the answer to that question I would be a high ranked politician The solution is simple, avoiding the solution in order to create a western military power ally in the middle east is what high ranked politicians do.
- consumer451 3y ago
  > The solution is simple Please explain.
  - Jochim 3y ago
    [flagged]
    - dang 3y ago
      Please don't post in the flamewar style to HN, and especially not to this thread. It's against the site guidelines (https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html) and strongly against the intended spirit that I tried to describe in the comment that's pinned to the top.
      - Jochim 3y ago
        Apologies, I didn't intend the comment to come across that way, it was too flippant given the topic.
    - consumer451 3y ago
      This doesn't track because the USA has bases all around the ME, and supplies Israel's "competition" like KSA and Egypt with arms. It is much more complicated.
      - Jochim 3y ago
        I don't think the situation is particularly inscrutable. Israel receives a greater degree of US support and benefits from it to a greater degree. Other ME states are aligned with the US out of convenience, the sale of western weapons plays a part in that.

noqc 3y ago

How does history prove any such thing? That's neither how history or proof work. Most of the wars that have been resolved to everyone's benefit have done so by the unconditional surrender of the aggressors, followed by amicable reconstruction.

shakow 3y ago
> How does history prove any such thing? Because there are Jews living in Germany nowadays?
- sgift 3y ago
  ... after Germany was bombed to the ground and occupied for years. Only after that came the diplomatic efforts.
  - shakow 3y ago
    > after Germany was bombed to the ground and occupied for years Well, looks like that box is checked for Gaza; can we jump to diplomacy now?
    - avmich 3y ago
      Box is not checked yet, otherwise IDF wouldn't have any resistance. We should try diplomacy all the time, but right now the offer of Israel is unconditional surrender or continuation of hostilities. Maybe - maybe - less atrocious to civilians than what it was during March 1945 in Germany. Diplomats will keep their work; of course everybody's abilities are limited.
      - shakow 3y ago
        > Box is not checked yet, otherwise IDF wouldn't have any resistance. That's a misqualification; Germany offered resistance up to the last day, Berlin didn't fall without a fight.
- paulryanrogers 3y ago
  Are there Jews in Germany today because of diplomacy? Or because those who tried annihilating and enslaving most German Jews were removed from power by force?
- noqc 3y ago
  After Germany surrendered unconditionally and was amicably reconstructed.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
Ozzie_osman 3y ago
Who is the aggressor here?
- gafferongames 3y ago
  Hamas on Oct 7th
  - Ozzie_osman 3y ago
    Many people would disagree if you look at the history starting from the Nakba.
    - gafferongames 3y ago
      [flagged]
      - Ozzie_osman 3y ago
        Not sure how that easily Google-able question has anything to do with the discussion. Name one famous Israeli from more than 100 years ago. Name one famous American from more than 250 years ago. What am I proving by asking these questions?
        deleted 3y ago
        [deleted]
        runarberg 3y ago
        If Christopher Columbus can be Italian, then Jesus Christ can be considered a Palestinian.
      - Zpalmtree 3y ago
        [flagged]
      - peterashford 3y ago
        What is that question even for? What are you saying?
locallost 3y ago
It provides examples that it happened and thus proves it's possible.
- noqc 3y ago
  I'm not convinced by the examples that you have listed (a conspicuously empty list at that), and examples are only evidence by analogy anyway. The reactivity of hydrogen is not proof of the reactivity of helium.
  - locallost 3y ago
    The list is empty if you haven't read what I originally posted and linked. Obviously you haven't. Politics is neither chemistry nor physics, it is what is referred to as the art of the impossible. Many nasty situations in the past seemed impossible to solve diplomatically, but it was made possible. No matter how bleak it might have looked. Again, refer to the link I posted that kicked off this discussion.
    - noqc 3y ago
      I assure you that I read the tweet, and the list remains utterly null. In a broader sense, I don't fault you for looking at war and thinking, or rather hoping, that in a just world, this wouldn't be the solution to any problem. It is unsettled whether or not humanity can create such a just world, but we certainly haven't done it yet. Requiring the unconditional surrender of Hamas through force is very much a reasonable and acceptable way forward.
      - locallost 3y ago
        "And that's the cunning of history; when you're at the bottom, something can happen that gives hope. After the 1973 war, who would have thought that before the end of the decade, Egypt would sign a peace treaty with Israel?" so at least the list is obviously > 0. That's a good starting point for you to reconsider where else you've made a mistake.

saiya-jin 3y ago

Well, the alternative to diplomatic solution is total annihilation of palestinians in west bank, be it by forcing them off the land which is impossible since they have nowhere to run and other islamic states refuse them (so much for inter-muslim brotherhood, I guess Iran should take them), or murdering them one by one which seems to be going on now. Or what we had till now, which led to what we have now. It doesnt matter that the other side plays dirty, all sides eventually do. It just doesn't matter for statement above. It doesn't matter a nanofraction of a bit what government(s) publicly say, those are farts in the wind to be polite, I don't understand why people even care about such PR, its like what Putin says, what does it matter when its clearly said for a specific purpose and truth is optional? I honestly dont understand the resistance to their own state. Yes they will hate Israel, just like till now they did, just like every single its neighbor since its creation. So what? How did we/they move from this utter hate of neighbors to cca peace? Well certainly not by following the path of trying to eradicate the other, history is pretty clear there. Yes its a bit easier to invade and kill if you want compared to invading a foreign state, but preventing it should be a good thing. Also, US is effectively giving them a blank check, just empty words flying around, I really expected a bit more. A room for Russia or China to step up. Its like counting some destroyed tunnels or killing few brainwashed young guys mattered in long run, in same vein as say counting Vietcong losses and comparing them to US ones didn't matter. That's whats happening now. What's the plan for rest of existence? I dont see that part, I mean 0. But maybe current Israel government likes this situation, I mean the top guy is former special forces guy, so this is not unusual situation and a bit of blood doesn't matter to them and if there is war people don't focus so much on how effectively he erodes democracy. So what is this, state-sponsored genocide? Because 100% this is not how Hamas disappears for longer than few months (in same vein al qaeda didn't) and I think literally everybody involved realizes that, this will actually make it much stronger long term, think about all those eager volunteers from places like Saudi arabia. Soviet war was what created Osama. US invasion of Iraq is what pointed him to US. Suffice to say, when doing grocery shopping I don't buy products from Israel these days, we don't need more wars in middle east and massive refugees waves in Europe. Tiny wallet, but its all I have (apart from vacations but for that Israel was very low in the list anyway).

vcryan 3y ago

krainboltgreene 3y ago

> If I knew the answer to that question I would be a high ranked politician The solution is simple, avoiding the solution in order to create a western military power ally in the middle east is what high ranked politicians do.

consumer451 3y ago
> The solution is simple Please explain.
- Jochim 3y ago
  [flagged]
  - dang 3y ago
    Please don't post in the flamewar style to HN, and especially not to this thread. It's against the site guidelines (https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html) and strongly against the intended spirit that I tried to describe in the comment that's pinned to the top.
    - Jochim 3y ago
      Apologies, I didn't intend the comment to come across that way, it was too flippant given the topic.
  - consumer451 3y ago
    This doesn't track because the USA has bases all around the ME, and supplies Israel's "competition" like KSA and Egypt with arms. It is much more complicated.
    - Jochim 3y ago
      I don't think the situation is particularly inscrutable. Israel receives a greater degree of US support and benefits from it to a greater degree. Other ME states are aligned with the US out of convenience, the sale of western weapons plays a part in that.