15 ms·

Hi All, I am a combat soldier and commander in the IDF currently fighting in Gaza. We are not committing any genocide. The give away for Genocide is that there

by surume 3y ago

Hi All, I am a combat soldier and commander in the IDF currently fighting in Gaza. We are not committing any genocide. The give away for Genocide is that there are mass graves, which in Gaza there are not. Yes there is collateral damage because Hamas uses civilians as human shields, so we have no choice but to kill them too, but we do not specifically target them. We risk ourselves and our soldiers to ensure that the fewest number of non-combatants get killed. We have lost many of our own soldiers because of this. It would be much easier for us to just bomb everything from the air but we dont, because it's less precise than going in on foot. Personally, as a commander, I would like to say that I have no ill feelings towards the Palestinian people, but we need to get as many of the hostages back as possible, and we cannot allow Hamas to continue ruling Gaza and attacking our civilians as they did on October 7th. We will continue the fight with them until our military objectives are met, and we will also engage Hizbollah on the northern border for exactly the same reasons (Hamas actually stole their plan and used it on October 7th - Hezbollah had planned to do it in the north but much worse). Israel is the canary in the coal mine. What happens to us today will happen to you tomorrow, so before you give your full throated support to Hamas, let me ask you, would you want October 7th to happen to your family and friends? If Hamas aren't stopped, that same attack will happen around the world. Please support us and help rid the world of violent terrorism, and maybe one day, we can all live in peace. Shabbat Shalom!

oeta 3y ago
[flagged]
Miner49er 3y ago
[flagged]
r00fus 3y ago
> We are not committing any genocide. The ICJ seems to disagree with you.
SomeoneFromCA 3y ago
[flagged]
nashashmi 3y ago
> there is collateral damage because Hamas uses civilians as human shields When you say things like this, I know that you are either spreading IDF propaganda or have been wired to believe IDF propaganda. Either way it is telling what soldiers are experiencing. None of the things you stated are any different than what IDF associated press has stated. This makes your post incredibly suspect. As this is HN, and we welcome on-the-ground views, we are not finding too much info about what is actually happening from the ground view in your post.
throw__away7391 3y ago
In general when there is an accusation of genocide, is a statement of denial from a soldier of the accused side considered good evidence?
- iuohjiuohuihiu 3y ago
  [dead]
- SomeoneFromCA 3y ago
  The whole his post feel so righteous and cliche prpaganda, I am almost feeling bad for him.
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
  - rsoto2 3y ago
    You should feel bad for people whose humanity was stolen from them. "A Journalist asked him" "how many children, how many people could be killed, to justify this operation? Is there an upper limit, where you think this is just to much this does not compute this does not add up? "That congressman, couldn't give a number. And I thought to myself, -that man has been corrupted. That man has lost himself. He's lost himself in humiliation. He's lost himself in vengeance. He has lost himself in violence. I keep hearing this term repeated over and over again "the right to self defense" What about the right to dignity? What about the right to morality? What about the right to be able to sleep at night? Because I know that If I was complicit, and I am complicit, in dropping bombs on children. In dropping bombs on refugee camps. No matter who is there. It would give me trouble sleeping at night, and I worry for the souls of people who can do this, and can sleep at night." -Ta-Nehisi Coates https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_df_u7yJj3k https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_df_u7yJj3k
masom 3y ago
> Yes there is collateral damage because Hamas uses civilians as human shields, so we have no choice but to kill them too, but we do not specifically target them. > we have no choice but to kill them too, but we do not specifically target them > we have no choice but to kill them too bruh... Those are war crimes according to the UN https://www.un.org/en/genocideprevention/war-crimes.shtml https://www.un.org/en/genocideprevention/war-crimes.shtml
- EvgeniyZh 3y ago
  > which would be clearly excessive in relation to the concrete and direct overall military advantage anticipated; You can't just put a single civilian in every military base and be protected by international law. Collateral damage isn't necessarily a war crime.
  - masom 3y ago
    Agreed, not saying what Hamas is doing is any good, they're also doing war crimes. An Hospital, Red Cross camp, and other zones are not military bases.
  - mkoubaa 3y ago
    I agree, collateral damage is not a war crime... Until it is paired with a not-hidden intent to punish the population
tomp 3y ago
Hi there, I personally admire the work you do, I fully support Israel in it's war against evil, I hope you eradicate Hamas (ideally they would all surrender, but that's unlikely, so the other option is they get killed) as soon as you can. If you doubt any of these words, check out my tweets/likes (@tomprimozic) However, there's 3 "contentious" points that I want to ask (my go-to Jewish (& very pro-Israel) close friend is currently very far away and has his own issues - not that you don't, but since you posted here...) 1. What's your comment on "Hamas headquarters below Al Shifa hospital"? 2. Why do IDF soldiers shoot (and post) videos of them "mocking"/"disrespecting" Palestinian homes/mosques/schools? 3. What's the steelman argument of why Israel is "occupying" the West Bank? The best I can come up with is "they didn't occupy Gaza and look what happened", but (a) that wasn't known before Oct7, and (b) they would have IMO gained a lot of goodwill abroad if they had given it more autonomy...
- surume 3y ago
  Thank you for the kind words. Will reach out when I get home next. Been a long day - we did a big mission today and I'm wiped so please excuse the short answers. 1. Hamas was located in a significant want under Al-shifa. Israel released video of our commando unit raiding it. You can find that video online. Hard to watch. 2. Because they're angry and they're being stupid and reacting emotionally. Please understand, they raped our women, tortured them and then murdered them. They did the same to our men, old people and children. Imagine for a second if a specific group did all that to lots of people that you loved and cared for. How would you feel? What would you post as you took your revenge? Israel is a tiny country. Everyone knows everyone. Everyone is related to everyone, or is at least friends with them on some way. So the disrespect is because they are furious with our enemy, and our enemy identifies specifically as religious muslims and arabs. Hard stuff. 3. Oh wow that's a hard one. It's complicated. We're in a war to claim territory with the Palestinians. I mean, you could reverse the question and ask "why are the Palestinians occupying Israeli land". The Palestinians arent a people, per se. They are the random groups of different arab families that were living in the area at the time of the creation of the state of israel. Some are from iran, some from Syria, some from Jordan, egypt, etc. so we are not "occupying" their land because there is no "them". Really what needs to happen is that we need to be separated. We can't continue to live in an intermingled fashion like this because it's too messy and unsustainable. But.... that's a problem for another day. For today we just need to deal with Hamas and Hezbollah. Good night =)
bitcurious 3y ago
>Personally, as a commander, I would like to say that I have no ill feelings towards the Palestinian people, but we need to get as many of the hostages back as possible, and we cannot allow Hamas to continue ruling Gaza and attacking our civilians as they did on October 7th. I'm curious about this - the idea that both goals are achievable is a fiction. You either get the hostages, or you eliminate Hamas. Do y'all talk about this?
- surume 3y ago
  Why can't we do both? We talk about it a lot. Until now, we have not succeeded, but maybe we can pressure Hamas to let them go, and then eliminate Hamas in a future round of fighting?
matsemann 3y ago
> so before you give your full throated support to Hamas, let me ask you This is a straw man. Condemning IDFs slaughtering of children isn't the same as supporting Hamas. I condemn both.
riscy 3y ago
> The give away for Genocide is that there are mass graves, which in Gaza there are not. The rubble of the numerous civilian homes and buildings you've leveled are the mass graves.
- surume 3y ago
  Nope. Those are just buildings. Without people, they are just structures. Again, if Hamas was firing at us from behind civilians (which they do a lot), then we had no choice. You can't just call anything a mass grave for the sake of convenience.
  - riscy 3y ago
    You can’t just call it “collateral damage” for the sake of avoiding the label of genocide while you’re murdering, starving, and barbarically destroying a society of millions of innocent people.
    - matsemann 3y ago
      Yeah, either he is brain washed (likely if he really is a soldier), or this is the IDF propaganda machine working hard with fake profiles.
  - YeGoblynQueenne 3y ago
    >> Without people, they are just structures. Those houses are full of people and there are estimated to be thousands of dead under the rubble. Thousands of bodies lie buried in Gaza’s rubble. Families dig to retrieve them, often by hand https://www.latimes.com/world-nation/story/2023-11-17/bodies-buried-gaza-rubble-families-dig https://www.latimes.com/world-nation/story/2023-11-17/bodies... Under the rubble: The missing in Gaza Finding the 7,000 Palestinians believed buried under collapsed buildings is becoming increasingly difficult. https://www.aljazeera.com/features/longform/2023/12/28/under-the-rubble-the-missing-in-gaza https://www.aljazeera.com/features/longform/2023/12/28/under... ‘Scarred for life’: the families still seeking dead amid Gaza rubble https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/nov/25/scarred-for-life-the-families-still-seeking-dead-amid-gaza-rubble https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/nov/25/scarred-for-li... etc etc.
HDThoreaun 3y ago
> but we need to get as many of the hostages back as possible And how many hostages has the war gotten back so far? > we cannot allow Hamas to continue ruling Gaza There is no realistic plan for ending Hamas. The more Hamas fighters you kill the more Gazans join. You can take temporary control of the government, but Isarelis in Gaza and anyone who works with them will be targeted by terrorists until the end of time. Eventually israel will get sick of the attacks and pull out, and Hamas will immediately regain control of the government. The obvious end game here is a return to the pre october 7th status quo with increased border security to ensure oct. 7th doesnt happen again. When will we admit that the hostages can not be saved and move to that end game?
Aeolun 3y ago
> would you want October 7th to happen to your family and friends? Obviously not. I just believe you are going about it the entirely wrong way if you want to prevent it. How many Oct 7’s do you think this one-sided conflict will spawn?
- surume 3y ago
  What is your proposed alternative that you're alluding to? That seems oddly missing in your comment.
  - HDThoreaun 3y ago
    Return to pre october 7th status quo but without the soft on border security stuff. Israel easily has the military capability to lock down the border.
  - Aeolun 3y ago
    Good question, I’m fairly certain that doing exactly nothing, while of course politically untenable, would be preferable to this. Kind of a “we don’t negotiate with terrorists” kind of deal. Find the kidnappers and then surgically take them out. If you’ve no clue how to do that get your single big ally to help you out with that, as they have about 20 years of experience doing exactly that thing. Even better if your lack of response causes a rift/break in the ranks of your opponents, and half of the hostages get released without conflict. Of course you’ll eventually have to resign and apologize to the public because it’s much easier for them to be bloodthirsty. And then, Israel’s PM is bloodthirsty themselves, so it’s all an exercise in futility anyway.
    - surume 3y ago
      Sorry, but that won't work. Hamas still have 130 hostages, and they shoot mortars, missiles and kamikaze drones into Israel with increasing technology and firepower. They have 20,000 combat soldiers left, so unless we leave several division on their border (which would be insane), they're just break through the fence and slaughter us again. I appreciate your attempt to come up with a solution, but it is not at all connected to reality. Hamas will not just sit in Gaza and wait. They showed us that on October 7th. Either we wipe them out or they will slaughter us again.
hnu234 3y ago
[flagged]
- dang 3y ago
  We've banned this account for repeatedly posting flamewar comments (not just in this thread but in many others). That's not what this site is for, and destroys what it is for. It's especially in violation of the intended spirit that I tried to explain at the top of the current thread. Please don't create accounts to break HN's rules with.
  - lyngdng 3y ago
    [flagged]
matsemann 3y ago
> We are not committing any genocide. The give away for Genocide is that there are mass graves, which in Gaza there are not. How many Hamas terrorists have you killed compared to the now over 10 000 children? The fact that there is no one to bury them doesn't mean it's not a genocide, come on.. > so we have no choice but to kill them too When you fire at children playing in the streets, you had a choice. If you can't see that, you've lost all humanity.. > but we do not specifically target them Hundreds of videoes proves otherwise. Where fleeing civilians are gunned down. > Personally, as a commander, I would like to say that I have no ill feelings towards the Palestinian people But your leaders have. And your peers, judging by videoes they posts about the cruelty they do. > but we need to get as many of the hostages back as possible You say that, but then you bomb every structure you find, and even shoot the fleeing hostages yourself. It doesn't really seem you care too much for them, they're merely a convenient excuse to do your horrors. > Please support us and help rid the world of violent terrorism You can start by laying down your weapon. What you're doing to Palestinian civilians is terrorism.
YeGoblynQueenne 3y ago
>> The give away for Genocide is that there are mass graves, which in Gaza there are not. According to Omer Bartov, scholar of genocide, the criterion for genocide is that there is intent to commit genocide: The crime of genocide was defined in 1948 by the United Nations as “the intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such.” https://www.nytimes.com/2023/11/10/opinion/israel-gaza-genocide-war.html https://www.nytimes.com/2023/11/10/opinion/israel-gaza-genoc... There are numerous articles in the press reporting on mass graves of Palestinians killed in the war, in Gaza. For example: Palestinians digging mass graves inside al-Shifa hospital, health official says (14 November 2023, Al Shifa hospital) https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/nov/14/people-flee-northern-gaza-as-fighting-continues https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/nov/14/people-flee-no... Bodies are being buried in a mass grave at Gaza City’s largest hospital, health officials say. (14 November, Al Shifa) https://www.nytimes.com/live/2023/11/14/world/israel-hamas-gaza-war-news#mass-grave-shifa-hospital-gaza https://www.nytimes.com/live/2023/11/14/world/israel-hamas-g... More than 100 Palestinian bodies buried in mass grave in Gaza (22 November, Khan Younis) https://news.sky.com/video/more-than-100-palestinian-bodies-buried-in-mass-grave-in-gaza-13013897 https://news.sky.com/video/more-than-100-palestinian-bodies-... "All the cemetaries are full': Palestinians buried in a mass grave in Gaza (23 November, Khan YOunis) https://www.reuters.com/pictures/all-cemeteries-are-full-palestinians-buried-mass-grave-gaza-2023-11-22/ https://www.reuters.com/pictures/all-cemeteries-are-full-pal... Israel Gaza: Drone shots show Palestinians buried in Rafah mass grave (26 December, Rafah) https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/world-middle-east-67825385 https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/world-middle-east-67825385 etc etc.
- matsemann 3y ago
  Itv filmed Palestinian civilians waving a white flag being shot and killed by Israel this week. "No intention to kill civilians" says this "soldier". Just pure lies.
YeGoblynQueenne 3y ago
>> Yes there is collateral damage because Hamas uses civilians as human shields, so we have no choice but to kill them too, but we do not specifically target them. I struggle to believe this is really a comment by a "commander in the IDF". Such a person should know that the use of civilians as human shields by one side does not absolve the other side from taking every precaution to minimise harm coming to those civilians. Risk to civilians does not bar military action, but the principle of proportionality requires that precautions be taken to minimize the harm to these protected persons. This analysis includes considerations like whether circumstances permit the attacker to time a military action to minimize the presence of civilians at the location.[16] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_shield_(law)#Legal_doctrine https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_shield_(law)#Legal_doctr... Specifically, saying the IDF doesn't target them, they're just in the way, is a cynical denial of that responsibility. Further, a commander of the IDF would remember the proverb about throwing stones when living in a glass house: there is extensive documentation of the use of Palestinian civilians as human shields by the IDF. See for example the Goldstone Report on Operation Cast Lead (2009): 10. The use of Palestinian civilians as human shields 55. The Mission investigated four incidents in which Israeli forces coerced Palestinian civilian men at gun point to take part in house searches during the military operations (Chapter XIV). The Palestinian men were blindfolded and handcuffed as they were forced to enter houses ahead of the Israeli soldiers. In one of the incidents, Israeli forces repeatedly forced a man to enter a house in which Palestinian combatants were hiding. Published testimonies of Israeli soldiers who took part in the military operations confirm the continued use of this practice, in spite of clear orders from Israel’s High Court to the armed forces to put an end to it and repeated public assurances from the armed forces that the practice had been discontinued. The Mission concludes that this practice amounts to the use of Palestinian civilians as human shields and is therefore prohibited by international humanitarian law. https://image.guardian.co.uk/sys-files/Guardian/documents/2009/09/15/UNFFMGCReport.pdf https://image.guardian.co.uk/sys-files/Guardian/documents/20... (page 19 of the pdf). Despite Israel's claims Hamas does not use civilians in this way. Instead they fight from built-up areas and make it difficult to distinguish combatant from non-combatant. They "hide among civilians" but they don't "use them as shields".
rsoto2 3y ago
[flagged]
- dang 3y ago
  You can't attack another user like this on HN, no matter how wrong they are or you feel they are. You may not feel you owe the other person better, but you owe this community better if you're participating it; especially given the intended spirit that I attempted to describe at the top of this thread. Denouncing others as monsters without humanity is what fuels this entire horror. The least we can do is not allow that on Hacker News. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
  - rsoto2 3y ago
    This guy has probably taken part in salting the earth of Gaza https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2024/02/01/world/middleeast/Israel-gaza-war-demolish.html https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2024/02/01/world/middlee... Just like the Nazis did to Jewish families. Just missing some time-period-specific-items, but the end result is exact and horrifying.
    - dang 3y ago
      Pointing a finger at someone else does not mean that your HN comments were ok.
  - rsoto2 3y ago
    [flagged]
    - dang 3y ago
      I think labeling others as inhuman and deploying aggressive rhetoric against them is partly what fuels these horrors. I get that your intention is to oppose injustice, but when you do it this way, you actually contribute to the violence.
rsoto2 3y ago
Even extremely-biased NYT (which had to retract an article built on lies from Israel officials) has noticed your army destroying neighborhoods. Just like the Nazis destroyed Jewish homes. https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2024/02/01/world/middleeast/Israel-gaza-war-demolish.html https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2024/02/01/world/middlee...

by surume 3y ago

oeta 3y ago

[flagged]

Miner49er 3y ago

[flagged]

r00fus 3y ago

> We are not committing any genocide. The ICJ seems to disagree with you.

SomeoneFromCA 3y ago

[flagged]

nashashmi 3y ago

> there is collateral damage because Hamas uses civilians as human shields When you say things like this, I know that you are either spreading IDF propaganda or have been wired to believe IDF propaganda. Either way it is telling what soldiers are experiencing. None of the things you stated are any different than what IDF associated press has stated. This makes your post incredibly suspect. As this is HN, and we welcome on-the-ground views, we are not finding too much info about what is actually happening from the ground view in your post.

throw__away7391 3y ago

In general when there is an accusation of genocide, is a statement of denial from a soldier of the accused side considered good evidence?

iuohjiuohuihiu 3y ago
[dead]
SomeoneFromCA 3y ago
The whole his post feel so righteous and cliche prpaganda, I am almost feeling bad for him.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- rsoto2 3y ago
  You should feel bad for people whose humanity was stolen from them. "A Journalist asked him" "how many children, how many people could be killed, to justify this operation? Is there an upper limit, where you think this is just to much this does not compute this does not add up? "That congressman, couldn't give a number. And I thought to myself, -that man has been corrupted. That man has lost himself. He's lost himself in humiliation. He's lost himself in vengeance. He has lost himself in violence. I keep hearing this term repeated over and over again "the right to self defense" What about the right to dignity? What about the right to morality? What about the right to be able to sleep at night? Because I know that If I was complicit, and I am complicit, in dropping bombs on children. In dropping bombs on refugee camps. No matter who is there. It would give me trouble sleeping at night, and I worry for the souls of people who can do this, and can sleep at night." -Ta-Nehisi Coates https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_df_u7yJj3k https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_df_u7yJj3k

masom 3y ago

> Yes there is collateral damage because Hamas uses civilians as human shields, so we have no choice but to kill them too, but we do not specifically target them. > we have no choice but to kill them too, but we do not specifically target them > we have no choice but to kill them too bruh... Those are war crimes according to the UN https://www.un.org/en/genocideprevention/war-crimes.shtml https://www.un.org/en/genocideprevention/war-crimes.shtml

EvgeniyZh 3y ago
> which would be clearly excessive in relation to the concrete and direct overall military advantage anticipated; You can't just put a single civilian in every military base and be protected by international law. Collateral damage isn't necessarily a war crime.
- masom 3y ago
  Agreed, not saying what Hamas is doing is any good, they're also doing war crimes. An Hospital, Red Cross camp, and other zones are not military bases.
- mkoubaa 3y ago
  I agree, collateral damage is not a war crime... Until it is paired with a not-hidden intent to punish the population

tomp 3y ago

Hi there, I personally admire the work you do, I fully support Israel in it's war against evil, I hope you eradicate Hamas (ideally they would all surrender, but that's unlikely, so the other option is they get killed) as soon as you can. If you doubt any of these words, check out my tweets/likes (@tomprimozic) However, there's 3 "contentious" points that I want to ask (my go-to Jewish (& very pro-Israel) close friend is currently very far away and has his own issues - not that you don't, but since you posted here...) 1. What's your comment on "Hamas headquarters below Al Shifa hospital"? 2. Why do IDF soldiers shoot (and post) videos of them "mocking"/"disrespecting" Palestinian homes/mosques/schools? 3. What's the steelman argument of why Israel is "occupying" the West Bank? The best I can come up with is "they didn't occupy Gaza and look what happened", but (a) that wasn't known before Oct7, and (b) they would have IMO gained a lot of goodwill abroad if they had given it more autonomy...

surume 3y ago
Thank you for the kind words. Will reach out when I get home next. Been a long day - we did a big mission today and I'm wiped so please excuse the short answers. 1. Hamas was located in a significant want under Al-shifa. Israel released video of our commando unit raiding it. You can find that video online. Hard to watch. 2. Because they're angry and they're being stupid and reacting emotionally. Please understand, they raped our women, tortured them and then murdered them. They did the same to our men, old people and children. Imagine for a second if a specific group did all that to lots of people that you loved and cared for. How would you feel? What would you post as you took your revenge? Israel is a tiny country. Everyone knows everyone. Everyone is related to everyone, or is at least friends with them on some way. So the disrespect is because they are furious with our enemy, and our enemy identifies specifically as religious muslims and arabs. Hard stuff. 3. Oh wow that's a hard one. It's complicated. We're in a war to claim territory with the Palestinians. I mean, you could reverse the question and ask "why are the Palestinians occupying Israeli land". The Palestinians arent a people, per se. They are the random groups of different arab families that were living in the area at the time of the creation of the state of israel. Some are from iran, some from Syria, some from Jordan, egypt, etc. so we are not "occupying" their land because there is no "them". Really what needs to happen is that we need to be separated. We can't continue to live in an intermingled fashion like this because it's too messy and unsustainable. But.... that's a problem for another day. For today we just need to deal with Hamas and Hezbollah. Good night =)

bitcurious 3y ago

>Personally, as a commander, I would like to say that I have no ill feelings towards the Palestinian people, but we need to get as many of the hostages back as possible, and we cannot allow Hamas to continue ruling Gaza and attacking our civilians as they did on October 7th. I'm curious about this - the idea that both goals are achievable is a fiction. You either get the hostages, or you eliminate Hamas. Do y'all talk about this?

surume 3y ago
Why can't we do both? We talk about it a lot. Until now, we have not succeeded, but maybe we can pressure Hamas to let them go, and then eliminate Hamas in a future round of fighting?

matsemann 3y ago

> so before you give your full throated support to Hamas, let me ask you This is a straw man. Condemning IDFs slaughtering of children isn't the same as supporting Hamas. I condemn both.

riscy 3y ago

> The give away for Genocide is that there are mass graves, which in Gaza there are not. The rubble of the numerous civilian homes and buildings you've leveled are the mass graves.

surume 3y ago
Nope. Those are just buildings. Without people, they are just structures. Again, if Hamas was firing at us from behind civilians (which they do a lot), then we had no choice. You can't just call anything a mass grave for the sake of convenience.
- riscy 3y ago
  You can’t just call it “collateral damage” for the sake of avoiding the label of genocide while you’re murdering, starving, and barbarically destroying a society of millions of innocent people.
  - matsemann 3y ago
    Yeah, either he is brain washed (likely if he really is a soldier), or this is the IDF propaganda machine working hard with fake profiles.
- YeGoblynQueenne 3y ago
  >> Without people, they are just structures. Those houses are full of people and there are estimated to be thousands of dead under the rubble. Thousands of bodies lie buried in Gaza’s rubble. Families dig to retrieve them, often by hand https://www.latimes.com/world-nation/story/2023-11-17/bodies-buried-gaza-rubble-families-dig https://www.latimes.com/world-nation/story/2023-11-17/bodies... Under the rubble: The missing in Gaza Finding the 7,000 Palestinians believed buried under collapsed buildings is becoming increasingly difficult. https://www.aljazeera.com/features/longform/2023/12/28/under-the-rubble-the-missing-in-gaza https://www.aljazeera.com/features/longform/2023/12/28/under... ‘Scarred for life’: the families still seeking dead amid Gaza rubble https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/nov/25/scarred-for-life-the-families-still-seeking-dead-amid-gaza-rubble https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/nov/25/scarred-for-li... etc etc.

HDThoreaun 3y ago

> but we need to get as many of the hostages back as possible And how many hostages has the war gotten back so far? > we cannot allow Hamas to continue ruling Gaza There is no realistic plan for ending Hamas. The more Hamas fighters you kill the more Gazans join. You can take temporary control of the government, but Isarelis in Gaza and anyone who works with them will be targeted by terrorists until the end of time. Eventually israel will get sick of the attacks and pull out, and Hamas will immediately regain control of the government. The obvious end game here is a return to the pre october 7th status quo with increased border security to ensure oct. 7th doesnt happen again. When will we admit that the hostages can not be saved and move to that end game?

Aeolun 3y ago

> would you want October 7th to happen to your family and friends? Obviously not. I just believe you are going about it the entirely wrong way if you want to prevent it. How many Oct 7’s do you think this one-sided conflict will spawn?

surume 3y ago
What is your proposed alternative that you're alluding to? That seems oddly missing in your comment.
- HDThoreaun 3y ago
  Return to pre october 7th status quo but without the soft on border security stuff. Israel easily has the military capability to lock down the border.
- Aeolun 3y ago
  Good question, I’m fairly certain that doing exactly nothing, while of course politically untenable, would be preferable to this. Kind of a “we don’t negotiate with terrorists” kind of deal. Find the kidnappers and then surgically take them out. If you’ve no clue how to do that get your single big ally to help you out with that, as they have about 20 years of experience doing exactly that thing. Even better if your lack of response causes a rift/break in the ranks of your opponents, and half of the hostages get released without conflict. Of course you’ll eventually have to resign and apologize to the public because it’s much easier for them to be bloodthirsty. And then, Israel’s PM is bloodthirsty themselves, so it’s all an exercise in futility anyway.
  - surume 3y ago
    Sorry, but that won't work. Hamas still have 130 hostages, and they shoot mortars, missiles and kamikaze drones into Israel with increasing technology and firepower. They have 20,000 combat soldiers left, so unless we leave several division on their border (which would be insane), they're just break through the fence and slaughter us again. I appreciate your attempt to come up with a solution, but it is not at all connected to reality. Hamas will not just sit in Gaza and wait. They showed us that on October 7th. Either we wipe them out or they will slaughter us again.

hnu234 3y ago

[flagged]

dang 3y ago
We've banned this account for repeatedly posting flamewar comments (not just in this thread but in many others). That's not what this site is for, and destroys what it is for. It's especially in violation of the intended spirit that I tried to explain at the top of the current thread. Please don't create accounts to break HN's rules with.
- lyngdng 3y ago
  [flagged]

matsemann 3y ago

> We are not committing any genocide. The give away for Genocide is that there are mass graves, which in Gaza there are not. How many Hamas terrorists have you killed compared to the now over 10 000 children? The fact that there is no one to bury them doesn't mean it's not a genocide, come on.. > so we have no choice but to kill them too When you fire at children playing in the streets, you had a choice. If you can't see that, you've lost all humanity.. > but we do not specifically target them Hundreds of videoes proves otherwise. Where fleeing civilians are gunned down. > Personally, as a commander, I would like to say that I have no ill feelings towards the Palestinian people But your leaders have. And your peers, judging by videoes they posts about the cruelty they do. > but we need to get as many of the hostages back as possible You say that, but then you bomb every structure you find, and even shoot the fleeing hostages yourself. It doesn't really seem you care too much for them, they're merely a convenient excuse to do your horrors. > Please support us and help rid the world of violent terrorism You can start by laying down your weapon. What you're doing to Palestinian civilians is terrorism.

YeGoblynQueenne 3y ago

>> The give away for Genocide is that there are mass graves, which in Gaza there are not. According to Omer Bartov, scholar of genocide, the criterion for genocide is that there is intent to commit genocide: The crime of genocide was defined in 1948 by the United Nations as “the intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such.” https://www.nytimes.com/2023/11/10/opinion/israel-gaza-genocide-war.html https://www.nytimes.com/2023/11/10/opinion/israel-gaza-genoc... There are numerous articles in the press reporting on mass graves of Palestinians killed in the war, in Gaza. For example: Palestinians digging mass graves inside al-Shifa hospital, health official says (14 November 2023, Al Shifa hospital) https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/nov/14/people-flee-northern-gaza-as-fighting-continues https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/nov/14/people-flee-no... Bodies are being buried in a mass grave at Gaza City’s largest hospital, health officials say. (14 November, Al Shifa) https://www.nytimes.com/live/2023/11/14/world/israel-hamas-gaza-war-news#mass-grave-shifa-hospital-gaza https://www.nytimes.com/live/2023/11/14/world/israel-hamas-g... More than 100 Palestinian bodies buried in mass grave in Gaza (22 November, Khan Younis) https://news.sky.com/video/more-than-100-palestinian-bodies-buried-in-mass-grave-in-gaza-13013897 https://news.sky.com/video/more-than-100-palestinian-bodies-... "All the cemetaries are full': Palestinians buried in a mass grave in Gaza (23 November, Khan YOunis) https://www.reuters.com/pictures/all-cemeteries-are-full-palestinians-buried-mass-grave-gaza-2023-11-22/ https://www.reuters.com/pictures/all-cemeteries-are-full-pal... Israel Gaza: Drone shots show Palestinians buried in Rafah mass grave (26 December, Rafah) https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/world-middle-east-67825385 https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/world-middle-east-67825385 etc etc.

matsemann 3y ago
Itv filmed Palestinian civilians waving a white flag being shot and killed by Israel this week. "No intention to kill civilians" says this "soldier". Just pure lies.

YeGoblynQueenne 3y ago

>> Yes there is collateral damage because Hamas uses civilians as human shields, so we have no choice but to kill them too, but we do not specifically target them. I struggle to believe this is really a comment by a "commander in the IDF". Such a person should know that the use of civilians as human shields by one side does not absolve the other side from taking every precaution to minimise harm coming to those civilians. Risk to civilians does not bar military action, but the principle of proportionality requires that precautions be taken to minimize the harm to these protected persons. This analysis includes considerations like whether circumstances permit the attacker to time a military action to minimize the presence of civilians at the location.[16] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_shield_(law)#Legal_doctrine https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_shield_(law)#Legal_doctr... Specifically, saying the IDF doesn't target them, they're just in the way, is a cynical denial of that responsibility. Further, a commander of the IDF would remember the proverb about throwing stones when living in a glass house: there is extensive documentation of the use of Palestinian civilians as human shields by the IDF. See for example the Goldstone Report on Operation Cast Lead (2009): 10. The use of Palestinian civilians as human shields 55. The Mission investigated four incidents in which Israeli forces coerced Palestinian civilian men at gun point to take part in house searches during the military operations (Chapter XIV). The Palestinian men were blindfolded and handcuffed as they were forced to enter houses ahead of the Israeli soldiers. In one of the incidents, Israeli forces repeatedly forced a man to enter a house in which Palestinian combatants were hiding. Published testimonies of Israeli soldiers who took part in the military operations confirm the continued use of this practice, in spite of clear orders from Israel’s High Court to the armed forces to put an end to it and repeated public assurances from the armed forces that the practice had been discontinued. The Mission concludes that this practice amounts to the use of Palestinian civilians as human shields and is therefore prohibited by international humanitarian law. https://image.guardian.co.uk/sys-files/Guardian/documents/2009/09/15/UNFFMGCReport.pdf https://image.guardian.co.uk/sys-files/Guardian/documents/20... (page 19 of the pdf). Despite Israel's claims Hamas does not use civilians in this way. Instead they fight from built-up areas and make it difficult to distinguish combatant from non-combatant. They "hide among civilians" but they don't "use them as shields".

rsoto2 3y ago

[flagged]

dang 3y ago
You can't attack another user like this on HN, no matter how wrong they are or you feel they are. You may not feel you owe the other person better, but you owe this community better if you're participating it; especially given the intended spirit that I attempted to describe at the top of this thread. Denouncing others as monsters without humanity is what fuels this entire horror. The least we can do is not allow that on Hacker News. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
- rsoto2 3y ago
  This guy has probably taken part in salting the earth of Gaza https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2024/02/01/world/middleeast/Israel-gaza-war-demolish.html https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2024/02/01/world/middlee... Just like the Nazis did to Jewish families. Just missing some time-period-specific-items, but the end result is exact and horrifying.
  - dang 3y ago
    Pointing a finger at someone else does not mean that your HN comments were ok.
- rsoto2 3y ago
  [flagged]
  - dang 3y ago
    I think labeling others as inhuman and deploying aggressive rhetoric against them is partly what fuels these horrors. I get that your intention is to oppose injustice, but when you do it this way, you actually contribute to the violence.

rsoto2 3y ago

Even extremely-biased NYT (which had to retract an article built on lies from Israel officials) has noticed your army destroying neighborhoods. Just like the Nazis destroyed Jewish homes. https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2024/02/01/world/middleeast/Israel-gaza-war-demolish.html https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2024/02/01/world/middlee...