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Apple Shares List of Alternate Browsers That Will Be Available to EU Users

37 points by alwillis 3y ago

msie 3y ago
Ugh, envious I am.
- Osyris 3y ago
  I don't understand why. I thought users will just see a list of options upfront instead of having to install them and select one later. This seems like more of an awareness thing than an actual change in functionality.
  - filoleg 3y ago
    They probably just saw the title of the article and assumed that it was talking about allowing alternate browser engines on iOS. Can’t blame them, the title is rather misleading. I originally thought the same thing until I read the actual article.
    - ijhuygft776 3y ago
      > They probably just saw the title of the article and assumed that it was talking about allowing alternate browser engines on iOS. there was an article posted yesterday that claimed that they would be forced to do just that.
    - olliej 3y ago
      The article in this context of additional browser engines being allowed. I do however recognize web developers looking forward to just saying “you must use chrome”, just as they spent decades saying you have to use IE.
      - jemmyw 3y ago
        I've been working on a small side project and I can totally sympathise with this. Chrome has 2 features right now, and has had them for more than a year, that Firefox hasn't yet implemented. One of those is the new navigation API. There's a polyfill but it's complex and can't 100% fill the gap. I don't want to rely on blink browsers only but when you look at being able to implement a feature in 3 lines Vs many or not at all then...
        Wytwwww 3y ago
        A very small proportion of websites/webapps actually need those new features though (or should anyway..)
        jemmyw 3y ago
        My site doesn't need either of these features. What they've implemented are nice APIs for things developers were previously doing with much more overhead. If you're making something by yourself and only have a small number of users right now then those times saving shortcuts are incredibly helpful. If someone came to me and said they want to use it but it doesn't work in Firefox then I'd... think about it. Hasn't happened yet.
        olliej 3y ago
        Yeah, but you can also point to features in Safari or Firefox that chrome doesn't have (weirdly often CSS features?) and make the same argument. But if you say "only supporting chrome is the easiest option" you're also saying "I want to force my users to use the browser with the least privacy protection made by one of the biggest advertising companies on the planet with a long history of gross privacy violations". There are also a number of features the google has put into chrome that Firefox and WebKit don't support because they have severe privacy issues. Because if a spec compromises user privacy that's a deal breaker for every engine other than chrome, because chrome's privacy model is "the bare minimum possible". Google is literally only just talking about blocking third party cookies in chrome this year, despite that being the default behaviour of webkit from day 1. To try and divert attention from chrome intentionally disabling that privacy feature until now (because they've now got sufficient work arounds for third party cookie blocking) they're using the same terminology ("tracking protection" or some such) to describe re-enabling a basic privacy feature as Firefox and Safari use for the various technologies that protect against google's work arounds for third party cookie blocking. If you say "I only want to support chrome" that means you're also saying "I don't care about user privacy".
shampto3 3y ago
Sincere question - why does this matter? From what I understand, all iOS browsers are basically just safari with a different skin on top. I don't see much point to me using Firefox on iOS except for the syncing. I'm probably missing something though.
- blairbeckwith 3y ago
  They released new APIs and policy yesterday to allow non-Webkit based browsers in the EU, among many other changes to comply with the EU's Digital Millennium Act.
  - mikek 3y ago
    It is hard for me to imagine any browser makers switching to a non-Webkit-based implementation if they can only do it in the EU. They would need to support the Webkit-based code as well for other regions, which seems like a lot of work. Am I wrong?
    - tpm 3y ago
      With the third-party appstore also being available in the EU, someone will surely roll a non-webkit browser, though I have no idea how hard that is going to be as I don't develop for iOS.
    - joshstrange 3y ago
      You are not wrong and that's probably what Apple is counting on. Especially since if you rely on services from outside the EU then those people can't really test their website on the non-webkit browser engines. Of course if more countries force Apple to allow 3rd party browser engines the scales could flip.
    - spacebanana7 3y ago
      A lot depends on expectations. If Google expects these rules to be imitated globally over the next 5-10 years it might make sense to invest in a non-WebKit based implementation.
- deleted 3y ago
tdub311 3y ago
> contain the 12 most popular browsers from its App Store So it will just be giving them a choice between the existing browsers (that use webkit) in the store? Will new browser engines eventually make it to iOS for EU users?
- filoleg 3y ago
  That’s how I interpreted as well, with zero new info or plans regarding alternate browser engines on iOS.
  - asp_hornet 3y ago
    You mean 0 new plans or info outside the new plans and info laid out on Apple’s development website: https://developer.apple.com/support/dma-and-apps-in-the-eu/#browser-alt-eu https://developer.apple.com/support/dma-and-apps-in-the-eu/#... https://developer.apple.com/support/alternative-browser-engines/ https://developer.apple.com/support/alternative-browser-engi...
- joshstrange 3y ago
  > Will new browser engines eventually make it to iOS for EU users? Yes, but Apple _just_ announced yesterday the criteria and plans for that. I doubt any browser makers (except maybe Chrome?) have their browser ready to go and it uses new APIs so they would still have some work to do.
  - burnte 3y ago
    I'd be surprised if Mozilla doesn't have a Firefox build ready.
filoleg 3y ago
Upon reading the article, did I get it correctly that this is talking solely about the default browser choice? I.e., if I understood it right, it still won’t allow non-webkit browsers with their own browser engines. Here is the relevant quote from the article: > EU users will see a choice of browsers when they first launch Safari that can be set as the systemwide default browser. For each country, that list will contain the 12 most popular browsers from its App Store storefront displayed to the user in a random order. Again, assuming my interpretation is correct, the US users aren’t losing out on much, since they are able to install those same browsers from the App Store. They would just have one less menu to click through when setting up a new phone (because that “choose your default browser” dialog would be skipped). Note: the ability to set the default web browser app on iOS has been present since iOS14 iirc.
- olliej 3y ago
  I can’t speak for this article, but they’ve got a page dedicated to the rules for non-system webkit browser engines
- joshstrange 3y ago
  > If I understood it right, it still won’t allow non-webkit browsers with their own browser engines. No, Apple is going to allow 3rd party browser engines but initially it will be the same apps everyone has access to. Browser makers that want to use their own engine have to apply and be granted permission.
  - 2OEH8eoCRo0 3y ago
    > Browser makers that want to use their own engine have to apply and be granted permission. Apple and their approvals. Did the EU (or the Epic v Apple judge) say anything about approvals or that they shall allow these behaviors. Don't approvals imply denials which would violate the law?
    - wpm 3y ago
      Does the law force smartphone makers to allow me to write a “Malware-R’-Us” browser for their platform?
rasz 3y ago
Vivaldi got pretty screwed, excluded from all wealthy European nations. How is this even legal in EU, its supposed to be a common market with equal access.
- Wytwwww 3y ago
  I'm pretty sure you can access and use Vivaldi in every European country regardless of how wealthy it is.
smartbit 3y ago
iCabMobile is missing. What a pity, such a nice browser. Notice that the Onion Browser is listed in all 27 member states as among the 12 most popular browsers.

37 points by alwillis 3y ago

msie 3y ago

Ugh, envious I am.

Osyris 3y ago
I don't understand why. I thought users will just see a list of options upfront instead of having to install them and select one later. This seems like more of an awareness thing than an actual change in functionality.
- filoleg 3y ago
  They probably just saw the title of the article and assumed that it was talking about allowing alternate browser engines on iOS. Can’t blame them, the title is rather misleading. I originally thought the same thing until I read the actual article.
  - ijhuygft776 3y ago
    > They probably just saw the title of the article and assumed that it was talking about allowing alternate browser engines on iOS. there was an article posted yesterday that claimed that they would be forced to do just that.
  - olliej 3y ago
    The article in this context of additional browser engines being allowed. I do however recognize web developers looking forward to just saying “you must use chrome”, just as they spent decades saying you have to use IE.
    - jemmyw 3y ago
      I've been working on a small side project and I can totally sympathise with this. Chrome has 2 features right now, and has had them for more than a year, that Firefox hasn't yet implemented. One of those is the new navigation API. There's a polyfill but it's complex and can't 100% fill the gap. I don't want to rely on blink browsers only but when you look at being able to implement a feature in 3 lines Vs many or not at all then...
      - Wytwwww 3y ago
        A very small proportion of websites/webapps actually need those new features though (or should anyway..)
        jemmyw 3y ago
        My site doesn't need either of these features. What they've implemented are nice APIs for things developers were previously doing with much more overhead. If you're making something by yourself and only have a small number of users right now then those times saving shortcuts are incredibly helpful. If someone came to me and said they want to use it but it doesn't work in Firefox then I'd... think about it. Hasn't happened yet.
      - olliej 3y ago
        Yeah, but you can also point to features in Safari or Firefox that chrome doesn't have (weirdly often CSS features?) and make the same argument. But if you say "only supporting chrome is the easiest option" you're also saying "I want to force my users to use the browser with the least privacy protection made by one of the biggest advertising companies on the planet with a long history of gross privacy violations". There are also a number of features the google has put into chrome that Firefox and WebKit don't support because they have severe privacy issues. Because if a spec compromises user privacy that's a deal breaker for every engine other than chrome, because chrome's privacy model is "the bare minimum possible". Google is literally only just talking about blocking third party cookies in chrome this year, despite that being the default behaviour of webkit from day 1. To try and divert attention from chrome intentionally disabling that privacy feature until now (because they've now got sufficient work arounds for third party cookie blocking) they're using the same terminology ("tracking protection" or some such) to describe re-enabling a basic privacy feature as Firefox and Safari use for the various technologies that protect against google's work arounds for third party cookie blocking. If you say "I only want to support chrome" that means you're also saying "I don't care about user privacy".

shampto3 3y ago

Sincere question - why does this matter? From what I understand, all iOS browsers are basically just safari with a different skin on top. I don't see much point to me using Firefox on iOS except for the syncing. I'm probably missing something though.

blairbeckwith 3y ago
They released new APIs and policy yesterday to allow non-Webkit based browsers in the EU, among many other changes to comply with the EU's Digital Millennium Act.
- mikek 3y ago
  It is hard for me to imagine any browser makers switching to a non-Webkit-based implementation if they can only do it in the EU. They would need to support the Webkit-based code as well for other regions, which seems like a lot of work. Am I wrong?
  - tpm 3y ago
    With the third-party appstore also being available in the EU, someone will surely roll a non-webkit browser, though I have no idea how hard that is going to be as I don't develop for iOS.
  - joshstrange 3y ago
    You are not wrong and that's probably what Apple is counting on. Especially since if you rely on services from outside the EU then those people can't really test their website on the non-webkit browser engines. Of course if more countries force Apple to allow 3rd party browser engines the scales could flip.
  - spacebanana7 3y ago
    A lot depends on expectations. If Google expects these rules to be imitated globally over the next 5-10 years it might make sense to invest in a non-WebKit based implementation.
deleted 3y ago

tdub311 3y ago

> contain the 12 most popular browsers from its App Store So it will just be giving them a choice between the existing browsers (that use webkit) in the store? Will new browser engines eventually make it to iOS for EU users?

filoleg 3y ago
That’s how I interpreted as well, with zero new info or plans regarding alternate browser engines on iOS.
- asp_hornet 3y ago
  You mean 0 new plans or info outside the new plans and info laid out on Apple’s development website: https://developer.apple.com/support/dma-and-apps-in-the-eu/#browser-alt-eu https://developer.apple.com/support/dma-and-apps-in-the-eu/#... https://developer.apple.com/support/alternative-browser-engines/ https://developer.apple.com/support/alternative-browser-engi...
joshstrange 3y ago
> Will new browser engines eventually make it to iOS for EU users? Yes, but Apple _just_ announced yesterday the criteria and plans for that. I doubt any browser makers (except maybe Chrome?) have their browser ready to go and it uses new APIs so they would still have some work to do.
- burnte 3y ago
  I'd be surprised if Mozilla doesn't have a Firefox build ready.

filoleg 3y ago

Upon reading the article, did I get it correctly that this is talking solely about the default browser choice? I.e., if I understood it right, it still won’t allow non-webkit browsers with their own browser engines. Here is the relevant quote from the article: > EU users will see a choice of browsers when they first launch Safari that can be set as the systemwide default browser. For each country, that list will contain the 12 most popular browsers from its App Store storefront displayed to the user in a random order. Again, assuming my interpretation is correct, the US users aren’t losing out on much, since they are able to install those same browsers from the App Store. They would just have one less menu to click through when setting up a new phone (because that “choose your default browser” dialog would be skipped). Note: the ability to set the default web browser app on iOS has been present since iOS14 iirc.

olliej 3y ago
I can’t speak for this article, but they’ve got a page dedicated to the rules for non-system webkit browser engines
joshstrange 3y ago
> If I understood it right, it still won’t allow non-webkit browsers with their own browser engines. No, Apple is going to allow 3rd party browser engines but initially it will be the same apps everyone has access to. Browser makers that want to use their own engine have to apply and be granted permission.
- 2OEH8eoCRo0 3y ago
  > Browser makers that want to use their own engine have to apply and be granted permission. Apple and their approvals. Did the EU (or the Epic v Apple judge) say anything about approvals or that they shall allow these behaviors. Don't approvals imply denials which would violate the law?
  - wpm 3y ago
    Does the law force smartphone makers to allow me to write a “Malware-R’-Us” browser for their platform?

rasz 3y ago

Vivaldi got pretty screwed, excluded from all wealthy European nations. How is this even legal in EU, its supposed to be a common market with equal access.

Wytwwww 3y ago
I'm pretty sure you can access and use Vivaldi in every European country regardless of how wealthy it is.

smartbit 3y ago

iCabMobile is missing. What a pity, such a nice browser. Notice that the Onion Browser is listed in all 27 member states as among the 12 most popular browsers.