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In a reply further down OP mentions that role models play a role in this divide. I've noticed there's a lot more conservative role models than liberal role mode

In a reply further down OP mentions that role models play a role in this divide. I've noticed there's a lot more conservative role models than liberal role models targeting men. Is there a liberal counterpart to Andrew Tate, for example? Admittedly this just might be my colored perception from existing in a bubble.

BurningFrog 3y ago
But are those role models cause or effect?
JumpCrisscross 3y ago
> Is there a liberal counterpart to Andrew Tate, for example? There are plenty of non-crazy male role models. (Most successful public figures, I’d argue, trimmed at the most controversial.) The problem is they’ve largely abandoned the mantel of masculinity. Which is a problem, because it’s a core part of our humanity—you can’t repress it away. So the right has been able to run wild with the term, which lead to a backlash labelling any expression of masculinity as toxic. Which is bullshit. But what’s also bullshit is the notion that whining instead of doing, throwing hissy fits and kicking those who are down is somehow masculine, which is the current pitch à la Tate et al.
- timeon 3y ago
  > masculinity as toxic What these influencers like Tate do not want to tell you is that masculinity can be considered as toxic for other reasons as well. For example 'toxic masculinity' burdens men with unreasonable expectations.
  - zozbot234 3y ago
    Hard to blame "masculinity" for that when the problematic expectations are largely coming from women. Often in an entirely inadvertent way, but this does not make them any less real or consequential to the men themselves.
    - asylteltine 3y ago
      [dead]
    - supertimor 3y ago
      Can you elaborate on these “problematic expectations” that you say women are imposing on men?
  - mablopoule 3y ago
    Yeah but masculinity is also a good ideal to strive for, for you know, roughly half of the population. The key is that it's not the only ideal men (or women !) can strive for, and there are people blurring the lines, which is absolutely fine. I find Tate to be absolutely repugnant, and he clearly represent some of worst aspect of what 'masculinity' is associated to, but to his credits he also represent strength, assertiveness, drive, and even spirituality (with his recent conversion), which are values that aren't found in a lot of other place not associated with 'conservative' nowadays.
- asylteltine 3y ago
  [dead]
asylteltine 3y ago
[dead]
mc32 3y ago
Shaun King, no? Or do you mean female feminists, of which there are a lot, including the more traditional Martina Navratilova and JK Rowling who get drowned by newer voices. WWF/E (whatever its called) wrestling is sometimes disgusting, but on the other hand it's an outlet for your hormones as you enter adulthood. Of course, there is a segment that does not let it go once they enter adulthood and responsibility. But, unlike previous generations people today loath assuming responsibility and prefer others to provide for them while they work things out into late adulthood.
- rswskg 3y ago
  Talculm x isn't a role model.
  - mc32 3y ago
    I mean, Andrew Tate, is that a role model, I think Shaun is in the same vein.
    - rswskg 3y ago
      As in, who listens to Talcum x and says 'I want to be like him'. What is there to be?
082349872349872 3y ago
> Is there a liberal counterpart to Andrew Tate, for example? Jesus Christ? Or are you asking for a contemporary counterpart?
Balgair 3y ago
There's really no 'liberal' person with Tate's reach. If there were, you'd know of them. I can assist with some non-political masculinity people/groups though: 1) Far and away: Brett and Kate McKay. They run https://www.artofmanliness.com/ https://www.artofmanliness.com/ and have for over a decade now. The articles are decidedly non-political and mostly non-religious. The back catalog is huge. The podcast is quite good and consistent. 2) Esquire Magazine: A bit of a lad-mag still. But the articles are mostly men's interest and on current events. The long form articles, going back decades, are gold. You're not going to find better journalism going on men's issues. 3) Russ Roberts: Running the econtalk podcast since 2006, https://www.econlib.org/econtalk/ https://www.econlib.org/econtalk/. Though very much not centered on men's issues, he does a very good job of separating out the issues of the guests he has and going slowly through it all. Between him and the McKays, they are the only podcast hosts I know of that actually read the books of the guests that they have on before the podcast (please let me know of others!). 4) Your local men's bible/torah/koran study group, scout troop, sports league, holy order of the water buffalo, etc.: Bit cheeky here, but they deserves a shout out. If you want healthy male conversation and groups, your local area men's groups, largely defined, are the best bet. The McKays go into this a lot more, but the gist is that men form gang as a basic unit and you have to play into that underlying structure. Largely speaking, good male role models are going to be harder to find and more local. That kinda relates to the way that men relate with each other. Bad ones are going to be all over the place and very loud about it, like so many drunks. The good ones are more silent and take time to develop, like so much scotch.
- shrimp_emoji 3y ago
  Destiny is my only liberal role model Except the addies killed the streams RIP
  - Balgair 3y ago
    Got a link to the person?
    - MacsHeadroom 3y ago
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
incomingpain 3y ago
This is far more a consequence of the problem. These other social problems are not fixed, are causing the divide, men become conservative and thusly the role models arrive. the liberal counterparts like Greta thunburg, bernie sanders, aoc, noam chomsky, justin trudeau, rachel maddow? yikes...
ZeroGravitas 3y ago
As another comment pointed out, in the USA the men stayed roughly where they were in how they answered the questions, and the women got more liberal. In the UK, both got more liberal, but women more so. So maybe you shouldn't be looking for conservative role models with a male audience, but liberal female role models? The article mentions #MeToo as a driver. Maybe social media has allowed liberal voices to reach audiences they were previously excluded from reaching via the mass media, in the same but opposite way that people worry about far-right/fascist messaging reaching young men?
TMWNN 3y ago
>Is there a liberal counterpart to Andrew Tate, for example? Pick one <https://imgur.com/0gL4oxd https://imgur.com/0gL4oxd>
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]

BurningFrog 3y ago

But are those role models cause or effect?

JumpCrisscross 3y ago

> Is there a liberal counterpart to Andrew Tate, for example? There are plenty of non-crazy male role models. (Most successful public figures, I’d argue, trimmed at the most controversial.) The problem is they’ve largely abandoned the mantel of masculinity. Which is a problem, because it’s a core part of our humanity—you can’t repress it away. So the right has been able to run wild with the term, which lead to a backlash labelling any expression of masculinity as toxic. Which is bullshit. But what’s also bullshit is the notion that whining instead of doing, throwing hissy fits and kicking those who are down is somehow masculine, which is the current pitch à la Tate et al.

timeon 3y ago
> masculinity as toxic What these influencers like Tate do not want to tell you is that masculinity can be considered as toxic for other reasons as well. For example 'toxic masculinity' burdens men with unreasonable expectations.
- zozbot234 3y ago
  Hard to blame "masculinity" for that when the problematic expectations are largely coming from women. Often in an entirely inadvertent way, but this does not make them any less real or consequential to the men themselves.
  - asylteltine 3y ago
    [dead]
  - supertimor 3y ago
    Can you elaborate on these “problematic expectations” that you say women are imposing on men?
- mablopoule 3y ago
  Yeah but masculinity is also a good ideal to strive for, for you know, roughly half of the population. The key is that it's not the only ideal men (or women !) can strive for, and there are people blurring the lines, which is absolutely fine. I find Tate to be absolutely repugnant, and he clearly represent some of worst aspect of what 'masculinity' is associated to, but to his credits he also represent strength, assertiveness, drive, and even spirituality (with his recent conversion), which are values that aren't found in a lot of other place not associated with 'conservative' nowadays.
asylteltine 3y ago
[dead]

asylteltine 3y ago

[dead]

mc32 3y ago

Shaun King, no? Or do you mean female feminists, of which there are a lot, including the more traditional Martina Navratilova and JK Rowling who get drowned by newer voices. WWF/E (whatever its called) wrestling is sometimes disgusting, but on the other hand it's an outlet for your hormones as you enter adulthood. Of course, there is a segment that does not let it go once they enter adulthood and responsibility. But, unlike previous generations people today loath assuming responsibility and prefer others to provide for them while they work things out into late adulthood.

rswskg 3y ago
Talculm x isn't a role model.
- mc32 3y ago
  I mean, Andrew Tate, is that a role model, I think Shaun is in the same vein.
  - rswskg 3y ago
    As in, who listens to Talcum x and says 'I want to be like him'. What is there to be?

082349872349872 3y ago

> Is there a liberal counterpart to Andrew Tate, for example? Jesus Christ? Or are you asking for a contemporary counterpart?

Balgair 3y ago

There's really no 'liberal' person with Tate's reach. If there were, you'd know of them. I can assist with some non-political masculinity people/groups though: 1) Far and away: Brett and Kate McKay. They run https://www.artofmanliness.com/ https://www.artofmanliness.com/ and have for over a decade now. The articles are decidedly non-political and mostly non-religious. The back catalog is huge. The podcast is quite good and consistent. 2) Esquire Magazine: A bit of a lad-mag still. But the articles are mostly men's interest and on current events. The long form articles, going back decades, are gold. You're not going to find better journalism going on men's issues. 3) Russ Roberts: Running the econtalk podcast since 2006, https://www.econlib.org/econtalk/ https://www.econlib.org/econtalk/. Though very much not centered on men's issues, he does a very good job of separating out the issues of the guests he has and going slowly through it all. Between him and the McKays, they are the only podcast hosts I know of that actually read the books of the guests that they have on before the podcast (please let me know of others!). 4) Your local men's bible/torah/koran study group, scout troop, sports league, holy order of the water buffalo, etc.: Bit cheeky here, but they deserves a shout out. If you want healthy male conversation and groups, your local area men's groups, largely defined, are the best bet. The McKays go into this a lot more, but the gist is that men form gang as a basic unit and you have to play into that underlying structure. Largely speaking, good male role models are going to be harder to find and more local. That kinda relates to the way that men relate with each other. Bad ones are going to be all over the place and very loud about it, like so many drunks. The good ones are more silent and take time to develop, like so much scotch.

shrimp_emoji 3y ago
Destiny is my only liberal role model Except the addies killed the streams RIP
- Balgair 3y ago
  Got a link to the person?
  - MacsHeadroom 3y ago

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]

incomingpain 3y ago

This is far more a consequence of the problem. These other social problems are not fixed, are causing the divide, men become conservative and thusly the role models arrive. the liberal counterparts like Greta thunburg, bernie sanders, aoc, noam chomsky, justin trudeau, rachel maddow? yikes...

ZeroGravitas 3y ago

As another comment pointed out, in the USA the men stayed roughly where they were in how they answered the questions, and the women got more liberal. In the UK, both got more liberal, but women more so. So maybe you shouldn't be looking for conservative role models with a male audience, but liberal female role models? The article mentions #MeToo as a driver. Maybe social media has allowed liberal voices to reach audiences they were previously excluded from reaching via the mass media, in the same but opposite way that people worry about far-right/fascist messaging reaching young men?

TMWNN 3y ago

>Is there a liberal counterpart to Andrew Tate, for example? Pick one <https://imgur.com/0gL4oxd https://imgur.com/0gL4oxd>

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]