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The KGB, the Computer and Me – The Cuckoo's Egg Story (1990) [video]
- th0ma5 3y agoMr. Stoll I believe eventually spent some time listening to the community, but for a while he had some contradictory views along the lines of the white, black, grey hat or perhaps what we would now call red team. For comparison here is a video from 1989 with a lot of risk management type language from the US government that seems boring and perfectly normal today https://www.c-span.org/video/?7596-1/computer-viruses https://www.c-span.org/video/?7596-1/computer-viruses
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- bemusedthrow75 3y agoMr Stoll internationally traced a KGB-affiliated hacker when almost nobody had heard of the internet[0], more or less invented the long-game honeypot to catch him, and testified at his trial. One hopes “the community” listened at least as much to him, considering the internet security community apparently was hardly worth a damn before all this happened. [0] and was, coincidentally, basically the first person to use the term “The Internet” (proper noun, emphasis on The) in widely read non-fiction, outside of a training manual and research document or two.
- neilkk 3y ago[flagged]
- p_l 3y agoYou mean the guys who admitted to working with KGB? I mean, I met one of them, they do not hide that part of the story (admittedly in a public interview one of them claimed it actually boosted their career in 1990s)
- neilkk 3y agoRight, so it was just as much in their interest as it was in Clifford Stoll's to pretend that this was an international espionage incident?
- p_l 3y agoNo, it literally was an international espionage incident. Documented down to money trails, separate "verification" action by soviet agents (who were attempting to verify the data they were being sold), and specific areas of interest. We're talking very early era of internet, barely 3 years after MILNET was separated from ARPANET, and computer security was less implemented than it should be. Which is why such outrageous hack could happen at all.
- th0ma5 3y agoIf your items are stolen from your car, the police officer can't care, but will take the report. If you say you left your doors unlocked, you also get a lecture. No one will welcome or be impressed by any sleuthing on your part. Maybe you can find your stuff, but is it worth the risk?
- p_l 3y agoThis is... an impressively bad analogy. As in it took me some time to even parse if it wasn't by chance something that was supposed to go somewhere else. Maybe if you're dealing with some innocent "looking" by obvious teen on unsecured system it would have a sliver of relation to what was happening. If anything, the biggest issue is that when the events happened, there were no "code of practice" to follow. Officials were even less useful than today. Checking for what the unauthorized access was used is today the basic of basics, and part of that comes from the experiences of what Germans call "KGB Hack". Especially when one works in national lab under auspices of Department of Energy, and traces intrusion (again, something I'd take for granted today, to check which way the attack comes if only to bolster future defenses) to a military contractor. The story probably would have ended there if it wasn't one of the first such cases - today I'd call up appropriate unit and led them lead the way. And even then, sometimes you have to sleuth your way if only to keep the agencies honest, because sometimes the only way to get them actually acting is to publicize what happened so that public starts asking questions. P.S. And I say that as someone who was born on the other side of the Iron Curtain and would be on short list to be vaporized under american policy of "kill as many civilians as soon as possible" P.P.S. Sometimes the police/others will, in fact, quietly mention that they might be interested in more data off the books.
- th0ma5 3y agoHe spent a long time on Slashdot and other places speaking out against hackers of all types and it wasn't until maybe 1999 or 2000 until he seemed to concede that some aspects of hacking, such as the bug bounties of today, were valuable. Dissent around Mr. Stoll at the time is evident in Phrack and other material from the time. I have the highest respect for the gentleman of course, I'm just trying to raise awareness that he was very much against messing with systems at all, even for exploration or testing, and spent a lot of time in the early to late 90s telling non-computer people to be suspicious of anyone who seems to know too much about computers. It was very offensive to me at the time, but I do know that he did eventually see the light. From Phrack #32 ``The Cuckoo's Egg'' captures many of the popular stereotypes of hackers. Criminologist Jim Thomas criticizes it for presenting a simplified view of the world, one where everything springs from the forces of light (us) or of darkness (hackers) (Thomas90). He claims that Stoll fails to see the similarities between his own activities (e.g., monitoring communications, ``borrowing'' monitors without authorization, shutting off network access without warning, and lying to get information he wants) and those of hackers. He points out Stoll's use of pejorative words such as ``varmint'' to describe hackers, and Stoll's quote of a colleague: ``They're technically skilled but ethically bankrupt programmers without any respect for others' work -- or privacy. They're not destroying one or two programs. They're trying to wreck the cooperation that builds our networks,'' (Stoll90, p. 159). Thomas writes ``at an intellectual level, it (Stoll's book) provides a persuasive, but simplistic, moral imagery of the nature of right and wrong, and provides what -- to a lay reader -- would seem a compelling justification for more statutes and severe penalties against the computer underground. This is troublesome for two reasons. First, it leads to a mentality of social control by law enforcement during a social phase when some would argue we are already over-controlled. Second, it invokes a punishment model that assumes we can stamp out behaviors to which we object if only we apprehend and convict a sufficient number of violators. ... There is little evidence that punishment will in the long run reduce any given offense, and the research of Gordon Meyer and I suggests that criminalization may, in fact, contribute to the growth of the computer underground.'' http://phrack.org/issues/32/3.html http://phrack.org/issues/32/3.html
- bemusedthrow75 3y ago> Dissent around Mr. Stoll at the time is evident in Phrack You don’t say!
- Thri4895o 3y agoThis guy wrote book in 1989. There is a section, where he asks some NSA guy about project Echolon, and if they recorded some phone call he needs for investigation. 25 years before Snowden! Always cracks me up :)
- neilv 3y agoI found the Snowden thing funny-odd... Echelon was something a lot of online techies had heard of by 1989. (I was just a teen, and I'd heard of it.) There was at least one book about it. It was so well-known, and joked about, for so long, that one time I made a nerdy joke referencing Echelon to an ex-NSA person. When they responded simply, "What's Echelon?", I realized I'd put my foot in my mouth, by rudely putting them in an awkward position. I guess that they still weren't allowed to talk about even long-public information about it. Before the Snowden disclosures there were all these capabilities and methods that you would've come up with, if you'd taken a smart techie and asked them, "If it was your job to build out surveillance capability, with NSA scale of resources, what kinds of things would be possible with what you know of computer-ish technology today?" After all the decades of jokes and speculation, it was still funny-odd to see that, yes, it's for real. Not entirely like Galaxy Quest, but at least the dorky parts: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nF_6OfgbF7c https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nF_6OfgbF7c
- A4ET8a8uTh0 3y agoI think the issue is that while even techies, who were not part of IC instinctively knew that the story as presented to the general population simply did not add up and explanations like 'we are only grabbing x out of y' are unlikely, the general population either did not understand or did not want to understand what it meant. It took the more salacious variants of those stories like nsa people spying on exes[1] to get public mildly interested. The sad thing is you are not wrong; as little as I knew back then in an irc channel. I remember after a particularly questionable comment I made a follow up with comment basically telling nsa its a joke. Then again, today people seem to add 'fbi agent' trope. [1]https://www.reuters.com/article/idUSBRE98Q14H/ https://www.reuters.com/article/idUSBRE98Q14H/
- 3y ago
- buildbot 3y agoEveryone should read the book! (The Cuckoo’s Egg) - it’s really awesome.
- ackbar03 3y agoThere's quite a few interesting cameo's, including Robert Morris (Morris Worm) and Paul Graham himself.
- cpach 3y agopg too? I had totally forgotten about that.
- jhbadger 3y agoI was curious and found the one mention of pg, in the discussion of the Morris Worm: So Bob Morris's son froze two thousand computers. Why? To impress his dad? As a Halloween prank? To show off to a couple thousand computer programmers? Whatever his purposes were, I don't believe he was in cahoots with his father. Rumours have it that he worked with a friend or two at Harvard's computing department (Harvard student Paul Graham sent him mail asking for "Any news on the brilliant project"), but I doubt his father would encourage anyone to create a virus. As Bob Morris Sr, said, "This isn't exactly a good mark for a career at NSA."
- ackbar03 3y agoI seemed to have recalled there was a bit more than just a mention, but I might have confused it with some other stuff I read. A lot of well known figures seemed to have crossed paths during the early days of the internet which I found pretty fascinating
- EvanAnderson 3y agoCliff is on HN, too. https://news.ycombinator.com/user?id=CliffStoll https://news.ycombinator.com/user?id=CliffStoll The Cuckoo's Egg was formative in my youth. Great book.
- lukeh 3y agoI remember reading an excerpt of this book in Australian Personal Computer magazine when I was a kid, and then the book some years later. Was a great story.
- drewcoo 3y agoBought a klein bottle from Cliff Stoll a few years ago. https://www.kleinbottle.com https://www.kleinbottle.com He enclosed a really nice brief note. Amazingly nice guy!
- Y_Y 3y agoI've gotten a couple of things from his shop. I was genuinely shocked at how friendly and helpful he was. It was probably the best "customer service" interaction I've ever had.
- ulysse_mn 3y agoI love Cliff, This Story about His Elementary School's Teacher teaching him about Matrices cracks me up every time (From a Numberphile podcast) https://www.tiktok.com/t/ZT8tfa5wN/ https://www.tiktok.com/t/ZT8tfa5wN/
- kekebo 3y agoThat was wholesome, thanks for linking
- erk__ 3y agoThe full podcast can be found here and is well worth a listen: https://www.numberphile.com/podcast/cliff-stoll https://www.numberphile.com/podcast/cliff-stoll
- fsckboy 3y agothis numberphile/Cliff Stoll video is on a different topic, klein bottles... or maybe more the travelling salesman/knapsack problem, but it's a must see. Cliff is a cool guy (whose geewhiz excitement I can only take in small doses but) he's worth following https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-k3mVnRlQLU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-k3mVnRlQLU
- sigma5 3y agoamazing story, thanks by the way it's the first time I see a tiktok link on hn :)
- urbandw311er 3y ago[flagged]
- geraldhh 3y agoactuall, since 17.3 i can do just that by: safari > youtube > fullscreen playback > power button > power button (yes, again) > play from lockscreen
- urbandw311er 3y agoNice find - but this works for audio only, and only if you don’t open any other apps. I’m talking about being able to minimise the video to a small window while you use another app. Unless I’ve misinterpreted your instructions.
- kanapala 3y agoYou’ll need Vinegar extension for safari for that. It forces standard video player on youtube.com, and you’ll have to uninstall YT app.
- urbandw311er 3y agoWhoa! Thanks - that’s exactly what I needed. Downloaded, paid, celebrated.
- geraldhh 3y agoworks for video on my end. but, yes, i must have misunderstood your requirements. the steps let me have the video running while the device is locked (for music, voice, etc). this was always possible in some way or another, but since the last patch it works out of the box.
- strawberryfie 3y agoIt’s a great story, and a fun book to read. However, while I can see the thrill of the chase, I can’t help but think Stoll’s superiors had the correct, pragmatic response more suited to the future of the internet - “close the loophole and move on”.
- ndsipa_pomu 3y agoI've given up trying to find the old "Science Fiction" series shown on ITV in the UK: https://www.imdb.com/title/tt1380838 https://www.imdb.com/title/tt1380838 The first episode is "Spycatcher" and based on The Cuckoo's Egg, so I wonder how similar it is to the other productions. Unfortunately, I can't find it in the usual places and "Yorkshire Television" who owns the footage doesn't exist anymore.
- doener 3y agoThere is also a 1998 German movie told from the other side of the story: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/23_(film) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/23_(film) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JUDWU4RBtds https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JUDWU4RBtds
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- WelcomeShorty 3y agoThis really made my day, what a fantastic blast from the past.
- Simulacra 3y agoCliff Stoll is a hero of mine. I grew up reading his books, and the Cuckoo's Egg is very close to my heart. Really opened my eyes to the Internet and the birth of modern technology. I remember when I was a kid I looked his phone number up, and he just happen to be listed in the book, so I called him up. He could not have been more kind.
- hnthrowaway0328 3y agoWhat happened to Markus afterwards? The sentence seems to be pretty light so I guess maybe the USSR had a hand in it. With his skills he could definitely do a lot in the computer industry.
- s3krit 3y agoAfter doing some internet sleuthing, I'm about 95% sure I know what he's doing today, and if it who I suspect, he has had a decent career in IT. Would rather not post my findings to respect the man's privacy.
- p_l 3y agoPengo had been quite successful, from what I've seen. Definitely felt more successful than me even before I heard (through alternate means) who I talked with XD. Never seen anything about what happened to Markus afterwards and seemed gauche to ask.
- dobin 3y agoI am currently reading "CYBERPUNK: Outlaws and Hackers on the Computer Frontier" and can recommend it if interested in pre/early computer hacking (Phreaking, BBS, VAX/Digital). First third is about Mitnick and friends, second about Pengu and CCC friends.
- bdcravens 3y agoThe Cuckoo's Egg was a fantastic read to me back in the mid-90s as my worldview was shaping up. (among other, like Soul of a New Machine, Hackers by Steven Levy, Masters of Deception, etc)
- Beta-7 3y agoI've recently read The Cuckoo's Egg and as a person that has been born into technology it's really interesting how Cliff goes to explain concepts that these days are understood as common knowledge.
- kjqgqkejbfefn 3y agoHere's what happened to me: - Reached out to a Russian troll on twitter via DM to discuss some specific topic he had mentioned. I try to engage the conversation on this topic which requires "blowing up his cover". - The shill gets angry and asks me to imagine what he would do to me. - My reply convince him I'm a US intelligence officer. After some nervous back and forth between blocking and unblocking me, someone else seems to be on the other side of the line and asks me to talk to my manager/officer, using some spy scheme from a movie. I back the fuck out. - About a week later, I realize there is an "iCloud" segment in my finder left vertical bar. All the sync settings are ticked, including stuff I do not use. I go check the sync folders' last modified time: a mere two hours after I had this conversation on Twitter. - Go back on twitter to see what the shill is up to. He's complaining about suffering a breach of his iCloud account and blames some intelligence service in Frankfurt, providing a picture of the building. I have no idea what I have stepped into. Was it some counter-intel honey pot ? Then it was pretty well made. Or are these people genuinely working for some russian service ? If so, then they are batshit crazy, arrogant and not as professional as one may expect. As a result I nuked my github and stopped using my phone, my watch, youtube account, etc. I was promised open brain surgery/interrogation by people that are allegedly expert doxxers and torturers and thought I was an intelligence soldier fighting against them.
- labrador 3y agoI had a similar experience many years ago and learned my lesson and stopped engaging this way with people I didn't know. Later I learned just how easy it is to dox people using stylometry (see: how Ted Kaczynski was caught) or by finding a careless mistake (see: how Dread Pirate Roberts was caught). I was glad then that I learned to be cautious.
- kjqgqkejbfefn 3y agoThis is exactly how I "blew up" his cover. The fact he used low quotation marks "disproved" the claim he was from western europe (mostly). I have no certitude though. This could well be intentional if this was a counter-intel honey pot, in which case I kneel. Would you mind sharing your anecdote, keeping things blurry as I did ?
- hyperman1 3y agoAfter a infosec course for non ict people, someone wanted to know more. I recommended The Cuckoo's egg. We are 30 (I guess?) years after that book, and I still have nothing better to recommend.