7 ms·

Once the user buys the phone, they own the physical device, but that’s not all they are receiving. They also receive software and services. They don’t own tho

by kj99 3y ago

Once the user buys the phone, they own the physical device, but that’s not all they are receiving. They also receive software and services. They don’t own those - they have a license for them.

merlindru 3y ago
Right, but the software and services prevent you from using the physical device however you want
- kj99 3y ago
  No they don’t. You can do whatever you like with the physical device.
  - e44858 3y ago
    How? The bootloader is locked, so it will only run Apple-approved software.
    - kj99 3y ago
      Then unlock it. The law explicitly allows jailbreaking.
matwood 3y ago
I think what many people are missing and you're pointing out is that this is a licensing issue. It's no different from Unreal Engine taking a 5% cut of every game sold or Sony taking a cut of all PS games. Developing using iOS libraries and tools requires developers to accept the licensing terms put forward by Apple. There is a lot of precedence for Apple's terms and they are better than most others. If this is an issue we want to address, then we need software/ip licensing in general to be changed.
- shaan7 3y ago
  You are right, and I don't think the DMA applies only to Apple. If PS does not allow anything from other sources, then Sony will have to change too. The Unreal example is wrong though, there are other engines to choose from.
  - matwood 3y ago
    > The Unreal example is wrong though, there are other engines to choose from. There are other phones to chose from also. This is where the rub is. Apple has already successfully argued in the US that the phone and the software and app store are a single entity. Breaking them apart does not make sense. Instead of paying 5% for the Unreal engine, I only want to pay 2% when I use someone Unity's networking stack. And, if Unreal isn't happy about that, I will petition the government to force them. It may sound odd or absurd, but it's still just a ip/software licensing agreement. BTW, any PS game sold digital or physical owes Sony a licensing fee (~15% last I saw). So even if Sony is forced to allow other digital stores on the PS, they will likely still demand a licensing fee for each game sold. Where the game comes from is irrelevant, except with physical sales falling under right of first sale doctrine.
    - dns_snek 3y ago
      > There are other phones to chose from also. This is where the rub is. Why do certain people always always fall back on this lame response that's not even applicable. > It may sound odd or absurd It's indeed absurd. Unity and Unreal Engine are not gatekeepers in any sense of the word. They do not control any market, they simply sell software and services to developers. Game engines are dime a dozen and games switch between different engines surprisingly often. This regulation addresses business dealings between Apple and developers working with their platform. Developers have a completely free choice of using Unity or Unreal Engine, it doesn't make a lick of difference to anyone except developers and artists working on the game. Developers do not have a choice of which platform their customers are using, the developer can't "choose Android" because they need to reach users on iOS which makes up half of their customer base. Not just in the app market, but in any market - hardware products, physical businesses, government services. All of those need to play by Apple's rules if they want to survive. This is what makes Apple the gatekeeper, they have the power to affect technological development of the entire world. If Apple decided that apps couldn't use NFC, this could potentially hold back modernization of the entire European public transit system. If Apple blocked apps from using certain bluetooth features, this would sink their competitors in the accessories & IoT market. It's not acceptable for one corporation to essentially hold the world hostage, hence this regulation.

by kj99 3y ago

Once the user buys the phone, they own the physical device, but that’s not all they are receiving. They also receive software and services. They don’t own those - they have a license for them.

merlindru 3y ago

Right, but the software and services prevent you from using the physical device however you want

kj99 3y ago
No they don’t. You can do whatever you like with the physical device.
- e44858 3y ago
  How? The bootloader is locked, so it will only run Apple-approved software.
  - kj99 3y ago
    Then unlock it. The law explicitly allows jailbreaking.

matwood 3y ago

I think what many people are missing and you're pointing out is that this is a licensing issue. It's no different from Unreal Engine taking a 5% cut of every game sold or Sony taking a cut of all PS games. Developing using iOS libraries and tools requires developers to accept the licensing terms put forward by Apple. There is a lot of precedence for Apple's terms and they are better than most others. If this is an issue we want to address, then we need software/ip licensing in general to be changed.

shaan7 3y ago
You are right, and I don't think the DMA applies only to Apple. If PS does not allow anything from other sources, then Sony will have to change too. The Unreal example is wrong though, there are other engines to choose from.
- matwood 3y ago
  > The Unreal example is wrong though, there are other engines to choose from. There are other phones to chose from also. This is where the rub is. Apple has already successfully argued in the US that the phone and the software and app store are a single entity. Breaking them apart does not make sense. Instead of paying 5% for the Unreal engine, I only want to pay 2% when I use someone Unity's networking stack. And, if Unreal isn't happy about that, I will petition the government to force them. It may sound odd or absurd, but it's still just a ip/software licensing agreement. BTW, any PS game sold digital or physical owes Sony a licensing fee (~15% last I saw). So even if Sony is forced to allow other digital stores on the PS, they will likely still demand a licensing fee for each game sold. Where the game comes from is irrelevant, except with physical sales falling under right of first sale doctrine.
  - dns_snek 3y ago
    > There are other phones to chose from also. This is where the rub is. Why do certain people always always fall back on this lame response that's not even applicable. > It may sound odd or absurd It's indeed absurd. Unity and Unreal Engine are not gatekeepers in any sense of the word. They do not control any market, they simply sell software and services to developers. Game engines are dime a dozen and games switch between different engines surprisingly often. This regulation addresses business dealings between Apple and developers working with their platform. Developers have a completely free choice of using Unity or Unreal Engine, it doesn't make a lick of difference to anyone except developers and artists working on the game. Developers do not have a choice of which platform their customers are using, the developer can't "choose Android" because they need to reach users on iOS which makes up half of their customer base. Not just in the app market, but in any market - hardware products, physical businesses, government services. All of those need to play by Apple's rules if they want to survive. This is what makes Apple the gatekeeper, they have the power to affect technological development of the entire world. If Apple decided that apps couldn't use NFC, this could potentially hold back modernization of the entire European public transit system. If Apple blocked apps from using certain bluetooth features, this would sink their competitors in the accessories & IoT market. It's not acceptable for one corporation to essentially hold the world hostage, hence this regulation.