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No, which in reality emphasizes the point I am trying to make. As a gamer I basically have zero choice but to install Steam, Epic Game Store, EA Store, or any o

No, which in reality emphasizes the point I am trying to make. As a gamer I basically have zero choice but to install Steam, Epic Game Store, EA Store, or any other stupid launcher that a publisher decides to force on me when there is a perfectly fine game store built into Windows and Mac.

madeofpalk 3y ago
The "or" in your sentence indicates the choice in the market.
- riversflow 3y ago
  There isn't user choice, only developer choice. For example, if I want to play Fortnite with my IRL friends I must download Epic Launcher. If I want to play WoW with my friends I must download BattleNet, if I want to play Counter Strike I must download Steam. I don't get much choice in what my already existing community of friends decides to play. This is likely to be mirrored in phone app stores. Need whatsapp/facebook/instagram on your phone? download the Meta Store! Don't like their T&C? Pound sand.
  - shaan7 3y ago
    Don't like their T&C, don't use them. As simple as that. I do not like Trucaller's T&C, so I do not use it. If some day I don't like WhatsApp's T&C, I won't use it. My friends and family will be asked to contact me via Signal (as an example). To your examples with games, there are lots of games that I do not install simply because I don't like those launchers. Whats wrong with that? It is _my choice_. I am not forced to use only Windows Store, for example. The argument that "because third party app stores can be shitty, they shouldn't be possible" is strange.
    - riversflow 3y ago
      Exile yourself from your social group to own the corporations. Got it.
- nerdjon 3y ago
  Maybe "And" would have been better, but I assume you are not a gamer if you think that. The reality is no, if I want to play Fortnite I have to install the Epic Game store. If I want to play GTA, even if I buy the game through steam I have to use the Rockstar Launcher. There are multiple instances of this situation in gaming and it is the exact thing I don't want to happen here.
  - madeofpalk 3y ago
    > but I assume you are not a gamer if you think that. Why would you assume that? I play video games on my PC. I'm not forced to install any software. I can make informed decisions and understand the trade offs with what software I want to use. Chosing to install Epic Launcher and playing Fortnite is you sending a signal into the market. Competition exists, users can express their opinion and act on it.
    - nerdjon 3y ago
      Then you are conceding that the choice is to ether install those stores or not play the game? That is the exact point that I am trying to make in my post. That is not giving a user a choice that should matter to the User. That is removing the opportunity to me to play a game from where I want to play it. The problem is, many people are just fine doing it because they want to play a large enough game. Which again is my point. In reality most users would likely download a Facebook apps store if it was required to use Facebook, same for Twitter, TikTok, and whatever other thing that people are addicted to on their phones. That is my problem here and why comparing it to the situation with gaming is a good example. I should not loose the CHOICE to use an app from the App Store that I already use, because a developer is making their choice to push their own store. That is the situation we are looking at here, that to use the apps I want to use I have to use those stores. Which is ridiculous, and it is naive to think it isn't going to happen when it is the state of gaming right now.
      - shaan7 3y ago
        > That is the situation we are looking at here, that to use the apps I want to use I have to use those stores. Which is ridiculous, and it is naive to think it isn't going to happen when it is the state of gaming right now. Consider the alternative where the only place to install apps (and hence games) is the Windows Store. Would that really be better? Windows Store's update process is lot worse than Steam (flaky download status, no way to make backups etc), and in many cases Steam has better integration with local payment processors.
SkyBelow 3y ago
>when there is a perfectly fine game store built into Windows I am surprised to see this sentiment, given how much trouble I've had with the Windows store the few times I've been forced to use it. The way it puts files into locations I have limited rights to even while operating in admin mode... game files... made it a nightmare. Especially when it stopped working and the installer couldn't even identify those files as existing for the sake of removing them. It was to the point now I'd rather skip playing a new game than use Window's store if it was my only option, even if the game was offered for free.
lttlrck 3y ago
Thanks for clarifying. I thought you were coming from a different angle and couldn't quite reconcile it. This is a very good point.
post_break 3y ago
No choice, proceeds to list off multiple app stores. Apply that same logic to the iPhone. Why not just take the abstinence road when it comes to any other store than steam? What's the safest way to Skii? Don't ski. Don't want to download any apps from a different app store than Apple's? Don't do it then.
- nerdjon 3y ago
  I am listing off those stores because I am making a point that as a gamer, I do not have a choice in using certain stores and launchers if I want to play the games I want to play. That is the exact situation I want to avoid on my phone. What is so hard about that to understand. This is removing a choice from a user.
  - post_break 3y ago
    You have a choice. Don't use the other store. If there was only one AppStore for games on PC you'd have no choice. That's the point. If it was only Steam, and Steam said they won't allow any games that depict war, what choice would you have? But that's the magic of having multiple App Stores, they have to compete. They can't be the world police of software. What's so hard to understand that having a choice means you can choose to do something, or not. If you want to use your phone with only Apple's Appstore, continue to do so, if an app you really want is not on the app store, then DONT BUY IT, except now, someone besides you has the CHOICE to download it.
    - nerdjon 3y ago
      You are advocating for an indirect choice, I have no benefit to installing Epic Game store, rockstar, or any other launcher. None, it just isn't there. Where as my direct choice is, I want to play this game. If I want to play a specific game, the choice of launcher is being made for me. That is not competition. I should not have to make that choice, and until this roles out I have not had to make this choice with my phone. I have been able to confidently install anything I want from a single source and it's great. That choice will be removed from me, that DIRECT choice. Not indirect which is what the App Store change will be.
Hamuko 3y ago
The "perfectly fine game store built into Mac" wouldn't even accept many of the games currently available on Steam. Anything with the "Adult Only" rating would just be outright rejected. Obviously you also wouldn't be able to install the games you bought on there on any device that didn't have an Apple logo. Sharing the same game library between Windows, macOS and Linux? Nope, buy them again. You might also have to kiss goodbye to cloud saves. The macOS App Store version of Resident Evil 4 doesn't support cloud saves between macOS and iOS devices whereas the Steam version has cloud saves. And this is the state of Apple's game store when they are facing competition.

madeofpalk 3y ago

The "or" in your sentence indicates the choice in the market.

riversflow 3y ago
There isn't user choice, only developer choice. For example, if I want to play Fortnite with my IRL friends I must download Epic Launcher. If I want to play WoW with my friends I must download BattleNet, if I want to play Counter Strike I must download Steam. I don't get much choice in what my already existing community of friends decides to play. This is likely to be mirrored in phone app stores. Need whatsapp/facebook/instagram on your phone? download the Meta Store! Don't like their T&C? Pound sand.
- shaan7 3y ago
  Don't like their T&C, don't use them. As simple as that. I do not like Trucaller's T&C, so I do not use it. If some day I don't like WhatsApp's T&C, I won't use it. My friends and family will be asked to contact me via Signal (as an example). To your examples with games, there are lots of games that I do not install simply because I don't like those launchers. Whats wrong with that? It is _my choice_. I am not forced to use only Windows Store, for example. The argument that "because third party app stores can be shitty, they shouldn't be possible" is strange.
  - riversflow 3y ago
    Exile yourself from your social group to own the corporations. Got it.
nerdjon 3y ago
Maybe "And" would have been better, but I assume you are not a gamer if you think that. The reality is no, if I want to play Fortnite I have to install the Epic Game store. If I want to play GTA, even if I buy the game through steam I have to use the Rockstar Launcher. There are multiple instances of this situation in gaming and it is the exact thing I don't want to happen here.
- madeofpalk 3y ago
  > but I assume you are not a gamer if you think that. Why would you assume that? I play video games on my PC. I'm not forced to install any software. I can make informed decisions and understand the trade offs with what software I want to use. Chosing to install Epic Launcher and playing Fortnite is you sending a signal into the market. Competition exists, users can express their opinion and act on it.
  - nerdjon 3y ago
    Then you are conceding that the choice is to ether install those stores or not play the game? That is the exact point that I am trying to make in my post. That is not giving a user a choice that should matter to the User. That is removing the opportunity to me to play a game from where I want to play it. The problem is, many people are just fine doing it because they want to play a large enough game. Which again is my point. In reality most users would likely download a Facebook apps store if it was required to use Facebook, same for Twitter, TikTok, and whatever other thing that people are addicted to on their phones. That is my problem here and why comparing it to the situation with gaming is a good example. I should not loose the CHOICE to use an app from the App Store that I already use, because a developer is making their choice to push their own store. That is the situation we are looking at here, that to use the apps I want to use I have to use those stores. Which is ridiculous, and it is naive to think it isn't going to happen when it is the state of gaming right now.
    - shaan7 3y ago
      > That is the situation we are looking at here, that to use the apps I want to use I have to use those stores. Which is ridiculous, and it is naive to think it isn't going to happen when it is the state of gaming right now. Consider the alternative where the only place to install apps (and hence games) is the Windows Store. Would that really be better? Windows Store's update process is lot worse than Steam (flaky download status, no way to make backups etc), and in many cases Steam has better integration with local payment processors.

SkyBelow 3y ago

>when there is a perfectly fine game store built into Windows I am surprised to see this sentiment, given how much trouble I've had with the Windows store the few times I've been forced to use it. The way it puts files into locations I have limited rights to even while operating in admin mode... game files... made it a nightmare. Especially when it stopped working and the installer couldn't even identify those files as existing for the sake of removing them. It was to the point now I'd rather skip playing a new game than use Window's store if it was my only option, even if the game was offered for free.

lttlrck 3y ago

Thanks for clarifying. I thought you were coming from a different angle and couldn't quite reconcile it. This is a very good point.

post_break 3y ago

No choice, proceeds to list off multiple app stores. Apply that same logic to the iPhone. Why not just take the abstinence road when it comes to any other store than steam? What's the safest way to Skii? Don't ski. Don't want to download any apps from a different app store than Apple's? Don't do it then.

nerdjon 3y ago
I am listing off those stores because I am making a point that as a gamer, I do not have a choice in using certain stores and launchers if I want to play the games I want to play. That is the exact situation I want to avoid on my phone. What is so hard about that to understand. This is removing a choice from a user.
- post_break 3y ago
  You have a choice. Don't use the other store. If there was only one AppStore for games on PC you'd have no choice. That's the point. If it was only Steam, and Steam said they won't allow any games that depict war, what choice would you have? But that's the magic of having multiple App Stores, they have to compete. They can't be the world police of software. What's so hard to understand that having a choice means you can choose to do something, or not. If you want to use your phone with only Apple's Appstore, continue to do so, if an app you really want is not on the app store, then DONT BUY IT, except now, someone besides you has the CHOICE to download it.
  - nerdjon 3y ago
    You are advocating for an indirect choice, I have no benefit to installing Epic Game store, rockstar, or any other launcher. None, it just isn't there. Where as my direct choice is, I want to play this game. If I want to play a specific game, the choice of launcher is being made for me. That is not competition. I should not have to make that choice, and until this roles out I have not had to make this choice with my phone. I have been able to confidently install anything I want from a single source and it's great. That choice will be removed from me, that DIRECT choice. Not indirect which is what the App Store change will be.

Hamuko 3y ago

The "perfectly fine game store built into Mac" wouldn't even accept many of the games currently available on Steam. Anything with the "Adult Only" rating would just be outright rejected. Obviously you also wouldn't be able to install the games you bought on there on any device that didn't have an Apple logo. Sharing the same game library between Windows, macOS and Linux? Nope, buy them again. You might also have to kiss goodbye to cloud saves. The macOS App Store version of Resident Evil 4 doesn't support cloud saves between macOS and iOS devices whereas the Steam version has cloud saves. And this is the state of Apple's game store when they are facing competition.