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Notarization has been enforced for all apps on the Mac for years. Would the DMA have an issue with requiring signed drivers? Seems a similar baseline. Personall

Notarization has been enforced for all apps on the Mac for years. Would the DMA have an issue with requiring signed drivers? Seems a similar baseline. Personally I’m totally ok with that. I haven’t seen a single instance of them not notarizing something or revoking it for something that wasn’t actually malicious.

rany_ 3y ago
You could actually disable the notarization enforcement entirely on the Mac or selectively depending on the file. So I don't think it's that bad.
LudwigNagasena 3y ago
That would be crazy if it were true. The only thing that is enforced on Mac is a scary pop up window.
Ukv 3y ago
> I haven’t seen a single instance of them not notarizing something or revoking it for something that wasn’t actually malicious. Apple did threaten to cut off Epic's ability to notarize Unreal Engine[0], until ordered not to by the court[1]. [0]: https://www.macrumors.com/2020/08/17/apple-terminate-epic-developer-accounts-august-28/ https://www.macrumors.com/2020/08/17/apple-terminate-epic-de... [1]: https://www.theverge.com/2020/10/9/21492334/epic-fortnite-apple-lawsuit-restraining-order-unreal-engine https://www.theverge.com/2020/10/9/21492334/epic-fortnite-ap...
- threeseed 3y ago
  That's because Epic maliciously violated the terms of service. In fact they did so deliberately to help them in their court cases.
  - Ukv 3y ago
    Gatekeeper/notarization are intended to stop malware, which Unreal Engine is not. Apple may well have a valid business dispute (over another application on another platform), but it's an abuse of the system and control they have to obstruct a Mac owner from running non-malware software on their own computer. Luckily the court stopped them retaliating in this case, but it gives me reason to be concerned about expansion of the "it's Apple's device and will always act in Apple's interests over the owner's" mentality from iOS towards Mac desktops.
  - paulryanrogers 3y ago
    Maliciously is a stretch. If a rule is unjust then violating is just IMO.
    - martimarkov 3y ago
      Not when you have signed a contract… come on this is law not Robin Hood…
      - paulryanrogers 3y ago
        Plenty of contracts include dubious and outright illegal things, depending on the jurisdiction. I'd say Apple is violating the public trust as they increasingly corner the market in apps and phones.
    - kj99 3y ago
      It’s not a stretch at all. The court explicitly found against Epic on this point.
      - Dylan16807 3y ago
        They had to violate it to be able to sue. That's not malicious.
        kj99 3y ago
        That’s simply a false statement, and it’s hard for me to believe you don’t know that, since it’s easily checked.
        paulryanrogers 3y ago
        How would they have standing to bring a suit if they had not tried to challenge the Appstore rule?
        kj99 3y ago
yreg 3y ago
>I haven’t seen a single instance of them not notarizing something or revoking it for something that wasn’t actually malicious. Do you think they would notarize a PornHub app?
- Wowfunhappy 3y ago
  ...if it works like on Mac, then I would, yes. It's an automated process and I'm not aware of any content requirements.
  - johnnyanmac 3y ago
    >Through a combination of automated checks and human review, Notarization will help ensure apps are free of known malware, viruses, or other security threats, function as promised, and don’t expose users to egregious fraud. I wouldn't be 100% confident there. I wouldn't be surprised if porn got through, but plenty of other companies have blocked such content under "security threats".
- FateOfNations 3y ago
  Apple doesn't care about porn on iOS devices, they just don't want it in the App Store. Unless a PornHub app is full of malware, it shouldn't have any problem getting notarized. App Store Review = Content and Quality Notarization = Safety and Security
tsimionescu 3y ago
You can install any app you want on the Mac, notarized or not. You might get some kind of warning, but that's irrelevant. And Apple only allows certain kinds of apps through their notarization process. They can't have pornogrpahy, they can't allow things that could break copyright etc.
Wowfunhappy 3y ago
No, notarization can be turned off on the Mac in ~15 seconds. Open a Terminal and type `sudo spctl --master-disable`. Enter your password and press enter. You can also right click an individual unnotarization .app bundle and select `open`, then affirm your intention in the scary warning prompt. P.S. The Mac also lets you disable SIP, install unsigned kernel extensions, and rewrite kernel memory to your heart's content. This is admittedly a bit more involved.
chatmasta 3y ago
Does Apple charge Mac developers a price per notarization? Because it sounds like that's effectively what they're doing here with iOS developers, since they require notarization and also require a fee per install for distributing outside the app store. It's a protection racket - pay us and we won't flag your app as malware.
- octacat 3y ago
  It is in plans though. I think EU should make alternative notarisation entities though, antivirus companies could do it. If we care about "privacy and security" here.
- heavyset_go 3y ago
  There's a $100 yearly fee if you want to Notarize apps.
- martimarkov 3y ago
  Not really. It’s a condition. You can also choose the old rules.. you can also chose to not develop for iOS. There is no gun to your head if you don’t develop for iOS
  - chatmasta 3y ago
    But the "old rules" were explicitly deemed illegal. Is there a limit to your logic? What if Apple had set the per-installation fee to $50 instead of $0.50? Developers have a choice! If they don't want to pay $50 per installation, they can choose the old rules. There is no gun to their head. Where is the line? Surely at some point, the choice is so unreasonable that Apple has effectively forced developers into "the old rules," thus circumventing compliance with the new rules, which may as well not exist if no developers can afford to play within them...
    - martimarkov 3y ago
      Develop for other OS-es. Don't develop for a platform you dislike and have so many issues with. I never write code for Windows and actively tell any client I have to not use it if they want my product. If they don't want it so much - there are plenty of alternative. If they really want it - they will use the OS I write the app for.

rany_ 3y ago

You could actually disable the notarization enforcement entirely on the Mac or selectively depending on the file. So I don't think it's that bad.

LudwigNagasena 3y ago

That would be crazy if it were true. The only thing that is enforced on Mac is a scary pop up window.

Ukv 3y ago

> I haven’t seen a single instance of them not notarizing something or revoking it for something that wasn’t actually malicious. Apple did threaten to cut off Epic's ability to notarize Unreal Engine[0], until ordered not to by the court[1]. [0]: https://www.macrumors.com/2020/08/17/apple-terminate-epic-developer-accounts-august-28/ https://www.macrumors.com/2020/08/17/apple-terminate-epic-de... [1]: https://www.theverge.com/2020/10/9/21492334/epic-fortnite-apple-lawsuit-restraining-order-unreal-engine https://www.theverge.com/2020/10/9/21492334/epic-fortnite-ap...

threeseed 3y ago
That's because Epic maliciously violated the terms of service. In fact they did so deliberately to help them in their court cases.
- Ukv 3y ago
  Gatekeeper/notarization are intended to stop malware, which Unreal Engine is not. Apple may well have a valid business dispute (over another application on another platform), but it's an abuse of the system and control they have to obstruct a Mac owner from running non-malware software on their own computer. Luckily the court stopped them retaliating in this case, but it gives me reason to be concerned about expansion of the "it's Apple's device and will always act in Apple's interests over the owner's" mentality from iOS towards Mac desktops.
- paulryanrogers 3y ago
  Maliciously is a stretch. If a rule is unjust then violating is just IMO.
  - martimarkov 3y ago
    Not when you have signed a contract… come on this is law not Robin Hood…
    - paulryanrogers 3y ago
      Plenty of contracts include dubious and outright illegal things, depending on the jurisdiction. I'd say Apple is violating the public trust as they increasingly corner the market in apps and phones.
  - kj99 3y ago
    It’s not a stretch at all. The court explicitly found against Epic on this point.
    - Dylan16807 3y ago
      They had to violate it to be able to sue. That's not malicious.
      - kj99 3y ago
        That’s simply a false statement, and it’s hard for me to believe you don’t know that, since it’s easily checked.
        paulryanrogers 3y ago
        How would they have standing to bring a suit if they had not tried to challenge the Appstore rule?
        kj99 3y ago

yreg 3y ago

>I haven’t seen a single instance of them not notarizing something or revoking it for something that wasn’t actually malicious. Do you think they would notarize a PornHub app?

Wowfunhappy 3y ago
...if it works like on Mac, then I would, yes. It's an automated process and I'm not aware of any content requirements.
- johnnyanmac 3y ago
  >Through a combination of automated checks and human review, Notarization will help ensure apps are free of known malware, viruses, or other security threats, function as promised, and don’t expose users to egregious fraud. I wouldn't be 100% confident there. I wouldn't be surprised if porn got through, but plenty of other companies have blocked such content under "security threats".
FateOfNations 3y ago
Apple doesn't care about porn on iOS devices, they just don't want it in the App Store. Unless a PornHub app is full of malware, it shouldn't have any problem getting notarized. App Store Review = Content and Quality Notarization = Safety and Security

tsimionescu 3y ago

You can install any app you want on the Mac, notarized or not. You might get some kind of warning, but that's irrelevant. And Apple only allows certain kinds of apps through their notarization process. They can't have pornogrpahy, they can't allow things that could break copyright etc.

Wowfunhappy 3y ago

No, notarization can be turned off on the Mac in ~15 seconds. Open a Terminal and type `sudo spctl --master-disable`. Enter your password and press enter. You can also right click an individual unnotarization .app bundle and select `open`, then affirm your intention in the scary warning prompt. P.S. The Mac also lets you disable SIP, install unsigned kernel extensions, and rewrite kernel memory to your heart's content. This is admittedly a bit more involved.

chatmasta 3y ago

Does Apple charge Mac developers a price per notarization? Because it sounds like that's effectively what they're doing here with iOS developers, since they require notarization and also require a fee per install for distributing outside the app store. It's a protection racket - pay us and we won't flag your app as malware.

octacat 3y ago
It is in plans though. I think EU should make alternative notarisation entities though, antivirus companies could do it. If we care about "privacy and security" here.
heavyset_go 3y ago
There's a $100 yearly fee if you want to Notarize apps.
martimarkov 3y ago
Not really. It’s a condition. You can also choose the old rules.. you can also chose to not develop for iOS. There is no gun to your head if you don’t develop for iOS
- chatmasta 3y ago
  But the "old rules" were explicitly deemed illegal. Is there a limit to your logic? What if Apple had set the per-installation fee to $50 instead of $0.50? Developers have a choice! If they don't want to pay $50 per installation, they can choose the old rules. There is no gun to their head. Where is the line? Surely at some point, the choice is so unreasonable that Apple has effectively forced developers into "the old rules," thus circumventing compliance with the new rules, which may as well not exist if no developers can afford to play within them...
  - martimarkov 3y ago
    Develop for other OS-es. Don't develop for a platform you dislike and have so many issues with. I never write code for Windows and actively tell any client I have to not use it if they want my product. If they don't want it so much - there are plenty of alternative. If they really want it - they will use the OS I write the app for.