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Yeah but the judges are human and are typically different humans at each event with different opinions and abilities to notice subtlties. There is no one standa

Yeah but the judges are human and are typically different humans at each event with different opinions and abilities to notice subtlties. There is no one standard human judge to abuse but with AI there is a single standard.

NeoTar 3y ago
I wonder if having some intrinsic randomness to the AI model would help to mitigate this problem? So that each AI has a subtly different perception of the move, and in order to satisfy every possible judge, the gymnast would need to complete the move as comprehensively as possible.
- badRNG 3y ago
  > I wonder if having some intrinsic randomness to the AI model would help to mitigate this problem? This would result in identical performances resulting in different scores with the difference being artificially arbitrary.
  - NeoTar 3y ago
    I was thinking you’d be consistent within a competition, but different between competitions, so Ana, Betty and Carola face the same judges when competing in the olympics final, but their performance cannot directly be compared to Diana, Edith and Frida who completed at the world gymnastics championship.
  - pc86 3y ago
    Which for two identical performances - an impossibility - would be an issue, but for two different performances would still yield different scores.
  - pixl97 3y ago
    So just like human judges?
    - lupire 3y ago
      Sure, you can reduce all of humanity to a random number generator, if you want
      - bumby 3y ago
        Maybe a slightly more generous take isn't that humans are random, but their value systems have some sort of distribution. I'm unfamiliar with gymnastics scoring, but judges may have different perspectives on what matters most if you take a sport like boxing that applies subjective scoring. One judge may value footwork and the jab more, while another weights power punches more, while another is swayed by seeing a competitor who is bloodier by the end of the fight despite having a more technically proficient fight.
nottorp 3y ago
The "AI" already hallucinates doesn't it?
t_mann 3y ago
Exactly. Right now, the best an athlete can do is to just give it their all, and I guess for a lot of people that would be what gymnastics is about. The potential for optimization with such machines is just on another level. You can re-run others' routines to see how you'd have scored, you can do thousands of reps to test the limits of the algorithm, you can code ragdoll simulators to find pockets of optimization,... Gymnasts will be discussing software glitches, version differences, how to 'break the algorithm'. Not even saying that's a bad thing, maybe it'll do for gymnastics what AI did for chess, open it up to a wider audience. Just saying that it could lead to a very different gymnastics scene, that will maybe look a bit more like eg the speed running communities for video games.
- lupire 3y ago
  It's not like chess. Chess has clear, simple, inhuman rules. Gymnastics doesn't.
  - mejutoco 3y ago
    I don‘t know. In some gymnastics people land cleanly by absorbing the shock with their kneews, instead of naturally bending them, for aesthetic reasons. I guess it depends on what we exactly mean by inhuman.
  - t_mann 3y ago
    Just an example of a sport that got quite reshaped by AI, but not necessarily in a bad way. The differences between the sports could hardly be greater, and the way they'd be impacted by computers would also likely be quite different.
    - adolph 3y ago
      Apparently Go has also been reshaped: Humans have improved at Go since AIs became best in the world https://www.newscientist.com/article/2364137-humans-have-improved-at-go-since-ais-became-best-in-the-world/ https://www.newscientist.com/article/2364137-humans-have-imp...
  - 3y ago
SoftTalker 3y ago
Is it established that an AI judge would judge everyone the same? That it would be impartial?
- jagged-chisel 3y ago
  This is a concern I also have. Perhaps the AI underfits/overfits and then an unusually-sized athlete comes along and the AI judges very poorly.
- Teleoflexuous 3y ago
  As usual, more proper (and entirely valid) concern is whether it would be biased less/in ways we prefer compared to humans.
Dalewyn 3y ago
>There is no one standard human judge to abuse but with AI there is a single standard. Having one and only one judging standard is a good thing.
- kuboble 3y ago
  Imagine we create an ai box and say that the box decides the results. It has been trained to judge those gymnastic acrobatics and is decision is final. What will inevitably happen is a guy will come to the competition with a weird pattern on his t-shirt and get a perfect score without preforming any of the exercise.

NeoTar 3y ago

I wonder if having some intrinsic randomness to the AI model would help to mitigate this problem? So that each AI has a subtly different perception of the move, and in order to satisfy every possible judge, the gymnast would need to complete the move as comprehensively as possible.

badRNG 3y ago
> I wonder if having some intrinsic randomness to the AI model would help to mitigate this problem? This would result in identical performances resulting in different scores with the difference being artificially arbitrary.
- NeoTar 3y ago
  I was thinking you’d be consistent within a competition, but different between competitions, so Ana, Betty and Carola face the same judges when competing in the olympics final, but their performance cannot directly be compared to Diana, Edith and Frida who completed at the world gymnastics championship.
- pc86 3y ago
  Which for two identical performances - an impossibility - would be an issue, but for two different performances would still yield different scores.
- pixl97 3y ago
  So just like human judges?
  - lupire 3y ago
    Sure, you can reduce all of humanity to a random number generator, if you want
    - bumby 3y ago
      Maybe a slightly more generous take isn't that humans are random, but their value systems have some sort of distribution. I'm unfamiliar with gymnastics scoring, but judges may have different perspectives on what matters most if you take a sport like boxing that applies subjective scoring. One judge may value footwork and the jab more, while another weights power punches more, while another is swayed by seeing a competitor who is bloodier by the end of the fight despite having a more technically proficient fight.

nottorp 3y ago

The "AI" already hallucinates doesn't it?

t_mann 3y ago

Exactly. Right now, the best an athlete can do is to just give it their all, and I guess for a lot of people that would be what gymnastics is about. The potential for optimization with such machines is just on another level. You can re-run others' routines to see how you'd have scored, you can do thousands of reps to test the limits of the algorithm, you can code ragdoll simulators to find pockets of optimization,... Gymnasts will be discussing software glitches, version differences, how to 'break the algorithm'. Not even saying that's a bad thing, maybe it'll do for gymnastics what AI did for chess, open it up to a wider audience. Just saying that it could lead to a very different gymnastics scene, that will maybe look a bit more like eg the speed running communities for video games.

lupire 3y ago
It's not like chess. Chess has clear, simple, inhuman rules. Gymnastics doesn't.
- mejutoco 3y ago
  I don‘t know. In some gymnastics people land cleanly by absorbing the shock with their kneews, instead of naturally bending them, for aesthetic reasons. I guess it depends on what we exactly mean by inhuman.
- t_mann 3y ago
  Just an example of a sport that got quite reshaped by AI, but not necessarily in a bad way. The differences between the sports could hardly be greater, and the way they'd be impacted by computers would also likely be quite different.
  - adolph 3y ago
    Apparently Go has also been reshaped: Humans have improved at Go since AIs became best in the world https://www.newscientist.com/article/2364137-humans-have-improved-at-go-since-ais-became-best-in-the-world/ https://www.newscientist.com/article/2364137-humans-have-imp...
- 3y ago

SoftTalker 3y ago

Is it established that an AI judge would judge everyone the same? That it would be impartial?

jagged-chisel 3y ago
This is a concern I also have. Perhaps the AI underfits/overfits and then an unusually-sized athlete comes along and the AI judges very poorly.
Teleoflexuous 3y ago
As usual, more proper (and entirely valid) concern is whether it would be biased less/in ways we prefer compared to humans.

Dalewyn 3y ago

>There is no one standard human judge to abuse but with AI there is a single standard. Having one and only one judging standard is a good thing.

kuboble 3y ago
Imagine we create an ai box and say that the box decides the results. It has been trained to judge those gymnastic acrobatics and is decision is final. What will inevitably happen is a guy will come to the competition with a weird pattern on his t-shirt and get a perfect score without preforming any of the exercise.