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Mobile apps, especially iOS apps, are hobbled by their curators. iPhone's don't even have an open file system and the platform was purposely designed so that a

Mobile apps, especially iOS apps, are hobbled by their curators. iPhone's don't even have an open file system and the platform was purposely designed so that apps are isolated, and funneled through a strict paradigm. This most certainly is not what I, or a lot of people want in a computing device -- it will not work, simply because a majority of innovators do not want to be locked into that universe. Apple has designed their platform to be a dead end. It is almost comical that that Google, Microsoft, and RIM have been trying follow Apple toward this dead end. On the development side of things I believe we're going to see a massive shift back to web-app development simply because of economics. There is no way any small group of developers can build desktop, iOS, and Android versions of their application simultaneously. This iOS fad WILL DIE because of costs, and that fact that Android numbers are rising dramatically, and people need to come up with a way to support each mobile platform and be able to use that app from their desktops too -- mobile web apps are the answer.

ryanhuff 14y ago
Your reasons, while important and meaningful from a developers perspective, mean little to the consumer choosing between a native app and a mobile web app. What's in it for the consumer?
- icebraining 14y ago
  Why would a consumer even know or care about that? They'll use whatever is easy to find, "install" (even if it means just a button that links to an URL), use and looks nice. They don't give a fuck if it's written JS or Java/ObjC or if it's HTML or XML or code rendering the UI.
cageface 14y ago
This most certainly is not what I, or a lot of people want in a computing device Most people don't even understand what a filesystem is, nevermind whether it's open or not. I agree with you that data is moving online but that's orthogonal to the native vs web app question.
- wavephorm 14y ago
  I want a "cloud filesystem", but want it controlled by ME, not Apple, and not iCloud. That's the problem. Apple wants to control the filesystem, and I, and others are not willing to accept this horrific scenario.
  - cageface 14y ago
    Yes you and your techie friends care about this. Most people don't. Current trends indicate user attention is shifting even more to native, BTW: http://blog.flurry.com/bid/80241/Mobile-App-Usage-Further-Dominates-Web-Spurred-by-Facebook http://blog.flurry.com/bid/80241/Mobile-App-Usage-Further-Do... The web vs native debate is really just a debate about which technology is better suited to building cloud client apps. HTML5 + JS is just another UI stack like Cocoa Touch or Android.
  - shock-value 14y ago
    Go read cageface's comment again. I think you are using the words "native app" wrong, or at least different than what most people think it means. You are correct that data is moving into the cloud, and away from Apple's restricted file system (or any local file system). But that has nothing to do with native vs. web (HTML) apps. Native apps can easily store all their data in the cloud (ANY cloud, not just iCloud), and still be native apps in the usual sense of the word. It seems to me that the trend is toward native, cloud based apps. And these two concepts are not in conflict. As cageface says, they are orthogonal.
  - Camillo 14y ago
    I find it hilarious that you are embracing cloud computing as your personal savior because you want MORE control. It's almost oxymoronic!
  - mark_integerdsv 14y ago
    You "and others" are in the tiniest minority. Surely the current state of the market is clear enough indication of this? I don't know you from a bar of soap but reading your comments, I get the impression of an American late-teen with a solid amount of technical knowledge, strong opinions but staggeringly little perspective. Even amongst those who are capable of administering an 'open platform cloud infrastructure' there are few who have the time. In my own circumstances, ten years of programming experience, recently shifted from consultancy to an analysis role at a major financial institution, start up on the side, seven week old baby,ten year old daughter, wife, 33 years of age... Let me tell you: the more my technology 'just works' the better. I won't accept my rights bing trampled on but a system that is elegant and robust albeit a bit restrictive is far preferable to spending hour on end tinkering with something that I need to actually use as opposed to configure endlessly.
ori_b 14y ago
> Mobile apps, especially iOS apps, are hobbled by their curators. iPhone's don't even have an open file system and the platform was purposely designed so that apps are isolated, and funneled through a strict paradigm. Which is different from browser apps... how, again?
jodrellblank 14y ago
And what open file system is there for "web apps"? Dropbox and a cobbled together flash uploader / email attachment / webapp specific API which probably only goes to FaceBook? Aren't webapps isolated? Funneled through a strict paradigm? And also at the other end of a comparatively slow link? The idea of a general purpose computer as it exists in the current desktop form must be put aside. We can't head to a future of everything we do in one portable device and from there to ubiquitous life integration when every app can read all your data and send it to anyone for any purpose, Android is falling fowl of that right now, we have to have isolation and sandboxing, different trust levels, restricted access to more important data (contacts, for example), to make a solid and trustable future platform.
- icebraining 14y ago
  And what open file system is there for "web apps"? Dropbox and a cobbled together flash uploader / email attachment / webapp specific API which probably only goes to FaceBook? Playing Devil's advocate, Google Drive has an API for webapps to access the user's files (with permissions only to files created by the app itself or that the user specifically opens). The webapp chooses the MIMEtypes it can open and then the user can just do Open With → App. Sure, it's GDrive specific for now, but the API is fairly generic and if it's successful, I can see other online drives implementing it themselves. Well, assuming Oracle loses this lawsuit, I guess :) Aren't webapps isolated? Funneled through a strict paradigm? And also at the other end of a comparatively slow link? APIs de-isolate them. Both the proprietary ones that already exist and open, distributed ones like http://webintents.org/ http://webintents.org/ And besides, aren't native apps on mobile isolated too? And the link between the user and the app may be slow, but it only needs to carry the UI. The data will flow from "cloud to cloud" at very high speed. We can't head to a future of everything we do in one portable device and from there to ubiquitous life integration when every app can read all your data and send it to anyone for any purpose, Android is falling fowl of that right now, we have to have isolation and sandboxing, different trust levels, restricted access to more important data (contacts, for example), to make a solid and trustable future platform. Uh, Android does have sandboxing and isolation, and apps can only access your data if you specifically allow them to. iOS was the one which didn't require permission to access your contacts (though Apple has said it will).
ralfd 14y ago
Web 2.0 Expo NY 2010: John Gruber, "Apple and the Open Web" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qss5RnD7wK8 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qss5RnD7wK8 This is an old presentation by Gruber (Daring Fireball) from 2010, but it is still excellent. And only 10 minutes long. He argues that iOS vs Web is a false dichotomy, in fact, the Web was from the start a big part of iOS. He then differentiates between "Web Apps vs Browser Apps". Your notion is, that a Web App is something which uses html. But he argues, and I think this rings true, that a Web App is something which uses http. "How can you say that Twitter, even though it is a native iPhone App, isn't really a Web App?"

ryanhuff 14y ago

Your reasons, while important and meaningful from a developers perspective, mean little to the consumer choosing between a native app and a mobile web app. What's in it for the consumer?

icebraining 14y ago
Why would a consumer even know or care about that? They'll use whatever is easy to find, "install" (even if it means just a button that links to an URL), use and looks nice. They don't give a fuck if it's written JS or Java/ObjC or if it's HTML or XML or code rendering the UI.

cageface 14y ago

This most certainly is not what I, or a lot of people want in a computing device Most people don't even understand what a filesystem is, nevermind whether it's open or not. I agree with you that data is moving online but that's orthogonal to the native vs web app question.

wavephorm 14y ago
I want a "cloud filesystem", but want it controlled by ME, not Apple, and not iCloud. That's the problem. Apple wants to control the filesystem, and I, and others are not willing to accept this horrific scenario.
- cageface 14y ago
  Yes you and your techie friends care about this. Most people don't. Current trends indicate user attention is shifting even more to native, BTW: http://blog.flurry.com/bid/80241/Mobile-App-Usage-Further-Dominates-Web-Spurred-by-Facebook http://blog.flurry.com/bid/80241/Mobile-App-Usage-Further-Do... The web vs native debate is really just a debate about which technology is better suited to building cloud client apps. HTML5 + JS is just another UI stack like Cocoa Touch or Android.
- shock-value 14y ago
  Go read cageface's comment again. I think you are using the words "native app" wrong, or at least different than what most people think it means. You are correct that data is moving into the cloud, and away from Apple's restricted file system (or any local file system). But that has nothing to do with native vs. web (HTML) apps. Native apps can easily store all their data in the cloud (ANY cloud, not just iCloud), and still be native apps in the usual sense of the word. It seems to me that the trend is toward native, cloud based apps. And these two concepts are not in conflict. As cageface says, they are orthogonal.
- Camillo 14y ago
  I find it hilarious that you are embracing cloud computing as your personal savior because you want MORE control. It's almost oxymoronic!
- mark_integerdsv 14y ago
  You "and others" are in the tiniest minority. Surely the current state of the market is clear enough indication of this? I don't know you from a bar of soap but reading your comments, I get the impression of an American late-teen with a solid amount of technical knowledge, strong opinions but staggeringly little perspective. Even amongst those who are capable of administering an 'open platform cloud infrastructure' there are few who have the time. In my own circumstances, ten years of programming experience, recently shifted from consultancy to an analysis role at a major financial institution, start up on the side, seven week old baby,ten year old daughter, wife, 33 years of age... Let me tell you: the more my technology 'just works' the better. I won't accept my rights bing trampled on but a system that is elegant and robust albeit a bit restrictive is far preferable to spending hour on end tinkering with something that I need to actually use as opposed to configure endlessly.

ori_b 14y ago

> Mobile apps, especially iOS apps, are hobbled by their curators. iPhone's don't even have an open file system and the platform was purposely designed so that apps are isolated, and funneled through a strict paradigm. Which is different from browser apps... how, again?

jodrellblank 14y ago

And what open file system is there for "web apps"? Dropbox and a cobbled together flash uploader / email attachment / webapp specific API which probably only goes to FaceBook? Aren't webapps isolated? Funneled through a strict paradigm? And also at the other end of a comparatively slow link? The idea of a general purpose computer as it exists in the current desktop form must be put aside. We can't head to a future of everything we do in one portable device and from there to ubiquitous life integration when every app can read all your data and send it to anyone for any purpose, Android is falling fowl of that right now, we have to have isolation and sandboxing, different trust levels, restricted access to more important data (contacts, for example), to make a solid and trustable future platform.

icebraining 14y ago
And what open file system is there for "web apps"? Dropbox and a cobbled together flash uploader / email attachment / webapp specific API which probably only goes to FaceBook? Playing Devil's advocate, Google Drive has an API for webapps to access the user's files (with permissions only to files created by the app itself or that the user specifically opens). The webapp chooses the MIMEtypes it can open and then the user can just do Open With → App. Sure, it's GDrive specific for now, but the API is fairly generic and if it's successful, I can see other online drives implementing it themselves. Well, assuming Oracle loses this lawsuit, I guess :) Aren't webapps isolated? Funneled through a strict paradigm? And also at the other end of a comparatively slow link? APIs de-isolate them. Both the proprietary ones that already exist and open, distributed ones like http://webintents.org/ http://webintents.org/ And besides, aren't native apps on mobile isolated too? And the link between the user and the app may be slow, but it only needs to carry the UI. The data will flow from "cloud to cloud" at very high speed. We can't head to a future of everything we do in one portable device and from there to ubiquitous life integration when every app can read all your data and send it to anyone for any purpose, Android is falling fowl of that right now, we have to have isolation and sandboxing, different trust levels, restricted access to more important data (contacts, for example), to make a solid and trustable future platform. Uh, Android does have sandboxing and isolation, and apps can only access your data if you specifically allow them to. iOS was the one which didn't require permission to access your contacts (though Apple has said it will).

ralfd 14y ago

Web 2.0 Expo NY 2010: John Gruber, "Apple and the Open Web" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qss5RnD7wK8 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qss5RnD7wK8 This is an old presentation by Gruber (Daring Fireball) from 2010, but it is still excellent. And only 10 minutes long. He argues that iOS vs Web is a false dichotomy, in fact, the Web was from the start a big part of iOS. He then differentiates between "Web Apps vs Browser Apps". Your notion is, that a Web App is something which uses html. But he argues, and I think this rings true, that a Web App is something which uses http. "How can you say that Twitter, even though it is a native iPhone App, isn't really a Web App?"