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Heat exchanger masks for cold weather cycling (2019)
- fredthedeadhead 3y agoThe site is down, so here's a working archive link: https://web.archive.org/web/20240125111236/https://www.coldbike.com/2019/02/13/heat-exchanger-masks-a-love-story/ https://web.archive.org/web/20240125111236/https://www.coldb...
- mkoryak 3y agoI used to commute on bike into Boston year round from 12 miles away for a few years. Getting dressed in the winter was always an art and I often thought about making some kind of a clothes chooser website that took into account the temperature and a bunch of other factors. I wish I had known of these masks. Keeping your glasses not fogged up was always a challenge. Winter biking in general is no joke around here because of the weather and the drivers. I started to wear a camera after I got hit by a car... see: https://youtu.be/2hJ_hzjlQsw?si=28yM2wmbCiQuOlJ7 https://youtu.be/2hJ_hzjlQsw?si=28yM2wmbCiQuOlJ7
- gerl1ng 3y agoLiving in central europe I rarely see Temperatures lower than -5°C. But when it's colder than that, I just put up my ski goggles and they are great for that. Also a full face mask will be added at -8 and lower. Without goggles at those temperatures my eyes would start hurting after around 30 minutes of cycling. Might not be healthy to get the eyes freezing either.
- ghosty141 3y agoI cycle to work everyday with my roadbike. My current job is quite close (only ~5-6km!) and below 1-2°C I wear my rain pants and only at like -10 and lower do I actually dig out the ski mask. For everything else my Oakley Jawbreakers work great. Generally it's not as bad as many people think, it only becomes hard if the trip takes longer than an hour and temperatures are below -2 -5 degrees.
- imp0cat 3y agoThis. Short distances (~15 minutes of ride time) are very doable with no extra cycling-specific equipment, just a thicker jacket, pair of gloves and a warm hat. You kinda get used to it.
- Etheryte 3y agoAs a tangent, as long as you're alive and kicking your eyes won't freeze. Eyes are in sockets inside your head and the heat radiating into them is enough for them not to freeze. (Otherwise prehistoric humans living in cold climates would've been thoroughly screwed.)
- high_priest 3y agoWon't freeze, but extreme temp. difference might lead to long term damage. Also, I don't think prehistoric humans, living in colder climates, had to endure long term exposure to direct wind at ~8m/s, used machines that created such scenarios, or relied on feeding themselves by running after prey.
- emj 3y agoI have never felt it, so what do you mean by extremes? I do not think a daily commute for 50 minutes in -15°C at ~25km/h on a bicycle is extreme. I never feel affected. I also go Nordic sking in -30°C for hours I have never been affected. The sun with snow blindness is not fun though never doing that mistake again.
- Etheryte 3y agoI suspect this is one of those cases where people who don't live in cold climates overestimate how rough it is. I also live somewhere where -30C is not rare and it's perfectly normal to spend hours outside in that weather. You just layer up, but outside of mountain skiing I don't think I've ever worn goggles.
- Moru 3y agoI also live in a cold climate. I get very bad eye problems below -15 C. at -10 I can handle just using my normal glasses but below -15 I need goggles. At -20 I put on a balaclava with goggles on top. It all depends on your age and medical problems. The temperature problem can also be underestimated. You really need the right clothes. I have a little list on my phone for what to wear at what temperature and I pack some alternative clothes to add if needed. In case wind was harder than anticipated or it's so slippery and bumpy that you will never get any sort of speed. I use Lungplus for breathing. I have two models, one for below +10 C and one for below 0 C that heats better. Asthma isn't funny. Cold allergy neither. I'm probably not totally sane going biking at -35 C.
- grogenaut 3y agoKnowing people who've worked in Antarctica I'd challenge that statement. They wouldn't take their gear of for more than a few seconds.
- bacon_waffle 3y agoThe 300 club might be of interest :) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/300_Club https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/300_Club
- grogenaut 3y agonote very quickly with support staff and training not to injure themselves...
- d_runs_far 3y agoI live in the Canadian Prairies, run outdoors year round. One thing I've experienced a few times is my contact lenses feeling much more rigid, which I've attributed to them starting to freeze up in extreme situations. Typically near the end of longer, 3+ hour runs where I'd be facing the wind and moving slower. Temps lower than -25 celsius and a 10 km/h wind cools things down fast.
- joekrill 3y agoI built a site like this for running (https://dressmyrun.com https://dressmyrun.com). I've gotten a few requests to make a similar site for cycling. I don't ride much myself so it's a little more difficult for me to judge how it should work. But I keep meaning to at least take a stab at it.
- imp0cat 3y agoIt will be a bit harder because of different route profiles. On a bike, you can both be quite cold when coasting downhill and steamy hot going uphill.
- usrusr 3y agoEven road quality can be a factor: huge difference between a cold -1000m elevation drop at -6% on a road where I can blast out of the curves at maximum watts and a cold -1000m elevation drop at -6% where I have to tiptoe down constantly pulling the brakes. The former can be tolerably comfortable with much less clothing despite much harder wind.
- markfenton 3y agoCan I just say thank you, I love your site! Despite being a regular runner it's much more convenient than trying to remember what I like to wear for a particular forecast.
- joekrill 3y agoThanks so much, I appreciate that!
- orenlindsey 3y agoI love this site! Wish I had found it sooner
- erictd 3y agoNice! I am going to give it a try for my Sierra Nevada foothills location. On cooler mornings I tend to add a light Smartwool beanie and a second shirt layer (long sleeve over short sleeve), weights according to my feelings about the temperature.
- yardshop 3y agoI commute by bike 2 or 3 days a week outside of Portland Maine. Last week had the coldest days so far at 17F (-8C). Generally my face and breath are always fine fully exposed, but my fingertips always get very cold even in the 30s. My ride starts off with a couple uphills so that warms me up pretty well, and I alternate pulling my fingers into the palms of my gloves from one hand to the other. The traffic is not usually _too_ bad, so the joys of biking generally outweigh all the other irritations!
- mkoryak 3y agoI messed around with connecting my external bike light battery pack to hand warming elements that I wrapped around my handlebars. It kinda worked a little bit.
- yardshop 3y agoThat's a neat idea! Maybe I could rig something like that up with one of my Ryobi battery packs.
- wlesieutre 3y agoThey make "hand deflectors" for motorcycles that are basically little windshields for your hands, have you considered trying something similar on your bike? Or are you not moving fast enough for the wind to be an issue, it's just how cold it is?
- CalRobert 3y agoAh, Boston cycling looks like a joy. You might find this useful https://loudbicycle.com/ https://loudbicycle.com/
- mkoryak 3y agoI have the silent version: a fake pigeon attached to my helmet. Most of my interactions with cars and people are great because of it. Ive only had a handful of problems - like the one I linked in the video above.
- noir_lord 3y ago> I often thought about making some kind of a clothes chooser website that took into account the temperature and a bunch of other factors. I had a similar idea once upon a time, it'd take in your proposed route and what time you'd be at each point then look up the weather for each point and generate a "ride weather forecast" (since for 80-100 mile rides you can be out for 4-6 hours the weather in the UK can change on a dime) with appropriate clothing. In the end it was just easier to look up the forecast for each area manually but it'd definitely be something I'd use if it existed.
- drew870mitchell 3y agoWeather Underground used to have a great tool for this that they called Road Trip Planner, but it broke and they took it down several years ago rather than fixing it. While trying to find the exact name i found a forum post listing a couple alternatives (Accuweather, get-there-dry, Weather Channel, EDD) that are also 404 now. But the hunt did lead me to aviationweather.gov which has hour-interval forecast coverage for US airspace e.g. https://aviationweather.gov/gfa/#temps https://aviationweather.gov/gfa/#temps
- yardshop 3y agoI'm still very sad about the final demise of the weather.gov EDD! I didn't use that clothing feature, but found it to be the best radar. I especially liked using URLs to my own images as pointers on the map.
- dylan604 3y ago"You're going on YouTube my friend!" <3 If only you had made it more obvious and framed up his license plate so it was clearly visible in frame. Although, he did look a bit older and seems easily confused. Maybe he should run for president?
- mkoryak 3y agoI wasn't trying to produce a viral video. I was mostly just pissed off that he insisted that the bike lanes weren't on the inside of THAT road, which they are. FWIW, he got doxxed after it went viral. He turned out to be a judge from south Boston.
- dylan604 3y agooh, that's brilliant. this video is a classic example of "fuck you! i'm wrong!" i did love the moment you can hear your "hmm" as you start to contemplate what's possibly about to happen.
- GenerWork 3y agoThis would be perfect to integrate into a stormtrooper helmet. You would get eye protection from the wind (not sure if stormtrooper helmet lenses had polarization or UV blocking) along with the heat exchanger.
- djbusby 3y agoStormtrooper lenses had like 100% blocking - explains their aim.
- GenerWork 3y agoCan't believe that with all that technology (FTL travel, etc) the empire forgot to come up with dynamically adjustable lenses.
- mrguyorama 3y agoAnd that time the one stormtrooper walked directly into a doorframe and knocked himself out. The Emperors finest folks!
- londons_explore 3y agoThe article doesn't describe exactly how these work... I could see 2 potential designs: Design 1: A high thermal mass piece of porous material, which air flows in and out through the same holes. As air is exhaled, the material warms up. As air is inhaled, the material gives collected heat to the incoming air. Design 2: As above, but there are two sets of paths through the material. The paths are in a checkerboard pattern so there is good thermal conductivity between them. One set is for incoming fresh air and the other for used air. One way valves ensure air travels in the correct direction through each hole. Design 1 is great for keeping both heat and moisture (air will be pre humidified on the way in). However, it has the downside that all of the air in the tubes will be re-inhaled in each breath. Effectively your lung capacity will be reduced by the volume of the mask. Design 2 is more mechanically complex, gives you very dry air to breathe in, and will be prone to clogging with condensation, but has the advantage that you aren't rebreathing any CO2 laden air. And just 2% breathed back in causes "complaints of drowsiness and poor air"[1] [1]: https://www.dhs.wisconsin.gov/chemical/carbondioxide.htm https://www.dhs.wisconsin.gov/chemical/carbondioxide.htm
- dgacmu 3y agoThey're all design 1. Here's a manufacturer link with an air flow diagram for one of the recommended ones: https://www.ergodyne.com/nferno-6970-extreme-balaclava-hot-rox.html https://www.ergodyne.com/nferno-6970-extreme-balaclava-hot-r... That said, the volume of air that could be retained in the foam heat exchange insert is quite small (eyeballing it, maybe 50-100ml?) compared to normal human inhalation volume, about 3-4L per breath during moderate exercise.
- londons_explore 3y ago100 ml / 4 liters = 2.5%. 2.5% of CO2 laden air (~50,000 ppm) + 97.5% fresh air (420 ppm) = 1640ppm. 1640 ppm of CO2 is very much into the 'feels drowsy and hard to concentrate' region.
- _flux 3y agoHowever, per https://www.omnicalculator.com/ecology/co2-breathing-emission#do-humans-breathe-out-carbon-dioxide https://www.omnicalculator.com/ecology/co2-breathing-emissio..., the air a person breaths out has only 4% CO2, reducing that number to 65ppm, right?
- cainxinth 3y agoVery helpful review, but imho, unless you’re biking in extreme cold (below 0F), you don’t need these. I’ve been cycling in 0-30F weather in just a cloth balaclava for a decade without issue (and I’m not especially resistant to cold).
- goda90 3y agoDo you wear glasses? Fogging is a big issue with most face coverings for me.
- cainxinth 3y agoI do wear glasses, but they have an anti fog coating. Also, I prefer to leave my nose out of the balaclava and instead cover it with a neoprene nose cover (NozKon), which helps prevent glasses from fogging (and doesn’t squish my nose).
- themerone 3y agoIt's a problem for me as a skier. Give Blackstrap products a try, I've found them to be much less problematic.
- dublinben 3y agoI swear by the Seirus Masque for both skiing and cycling.[0] The neoprene fits tightly to your face, but lets your nose exhale freely, which minimizes glasses fogging. They’ve got a hundred variations now for different levels of comfort and warmth. https://www.seirus.com/products/original-masque https://www.seirus.com/products/original-masque
- goda90 3y agoI've got a large beard, so I doubt this would have a tight enough fit even with a nose hole.
- wanderingstan 3y agoYes, the author mentions that -5°F is the boundary to “really cold”.
- xarope 3y agoI have worn the cold avenger (just google, it should be in the top 10 hits) in the south and north polar areas, and for high altitude. It's surprising how warm the air gets, I actually had to take it off at times whilst working hard.
- vdaea 3y agoHave you considered buying a car?
- squidgyhead 3y agoThankfully, I have been able to keept the car in the garage and ride at -30. Passed a lot of cars needing a boost though.
- Moru 3y agoMy commute is about 20 minutes on bike. At -35 C I passed 5 cars in parking lots with the hood up and in best case jumper cables from neighbour cars. There were a lot of cars that just didn't start any more.
- timeon 3y agoWhy? Is he disabled?
- Astraco 3y agoIs possible
- zeekaran 3y agoTimes like these I wish HN had a downvote button.
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- daemonologist 3y agoAt a certain karma threshold (500?) a downvote button is enabled; the desaturated/greyed out appearance of vdaea's comment indicates that people have been using it. More info: https://github.com/minimaxir/hacker-news-undocumented#downvoting-comments https://github.com/minimaxir/hacker-news-undocumented#downvo...
- Fricken 3y agoThe recent cold snap in Edmonton had me commuting in -37°C. I've never had to rely on face coverings while cycling. Last August however I attempted to cycle from Edmonton to Vancouver but was shut down due to wildfire smoke. My next chance to attempt is again in August, and I don't expect the smoke conditions to be any better. I could go for a cycling or sports specific PAP.
- winphone1974 3y agoIf you can find time a few weeks later September is much better. Less smoke and fewer tourists-especially the rental motorhomes. Weather is a crapshoot year round but August and September pretty similar (unless it snows in either month!) Note: I'm sure you know this, it's more for any potential bike visitors. It was cold in Calgary too, but you definitely had it worse!
- squidgyhead 3y agoI used the 3m filter mask biking in the wildfire smoke a while ago. There is a blowout hole, which makes it much easier to get stale air out. The sport-specifc one from MEC made it hard to get fresh air when biking up hill. I used the air warmer mask during this last cold snap. It made it so much more comfortable! Last year I was fine biking in the cold snap, except for one time biking up a hill. Actually breathing hard, I got a lot more cold air in my lungs, and ended up with a cough for a week. Wanted to avoid that this year.
- btbuildem 3y ago3M Aura N95 respirator (the one with an exhale valve) handles both situations extremely well.
- p1mrx 3y agoI just designed this 3D printed "antimask" to keep my face warm without fogging my glasses: https://www.thingiverse.com/thing:6438319 https://www.thingiverse.com/thing:6438319 Somebody suggested adding a sloping nose/mouth shield, and I said what I really needed was a heat exchanger... nice to see that they actually exist.
- avar 3y agoGrowing up in Iceland[1] I learned to breathe in through my mouth, out the nose, with the chin tucked into my collar. It requires tightly fitted clothing and folded clothing layers, and a bit of practice, but by doing this you can breathe pre-heated air, as it's been passing over your body. As far as modern solutions go, USB charged heated socks and other actively heated clothing has become cheap and light in recent years. 1. Yeah it's not that cold there compared to further inland, but usually windy as hell. I'd mostly use this to avoid inhaling snow.
- maxglute 3y ago>learned It this an unnatural kill you were taught like swimming or figured out what works best for you? I'm just imagining Iceland kindergarten giving winter breathing tutorials. Which is great. I feel like a lot more common life hacks should be transmitted this way. Like it blows my mind some cultures normalize ass washing, and subsects of others clump toilet paper.
- avar 3y agoYou just learn how to do it, it's not part of the school program or anything :-) If you're standing around in the cold it's a natural impulse to hide half your face it your jacket collar. I'm surprised I'm the first one pointing this out. P.s.: I'm the proud owner of a bidet.
- maxglute 3y agoI've spend way too much money on different scarfs, neck gaiters, face covers of different fabrics and performance material to keep my face warm during winter and moist free over the years. I instinctually tried mouth breathing, but all it did was draw fabric closer to mouth and made things wetter. I think maybe I didn't fully transition to breathing out through nose because it feels unnatural. Maybe it's one of those things where the solution is obvious but hard to adopt. So now I'm wastefully going through a few boxes of masks during winter months. TBH, only time I remember breath through mouth and exhale through nose is maybe meditation videos. Certainly not in any of the random winter wilderness survival videos. Which is why I was curious if this is some like cultural knowledge being passed.
- maxglute 3y agoAs someone whose body is getting more cowardly to cold by the year, I'd wear these as a pedestrian. I decided to keep wearing optimus prime style face mask during winter because it does a good job of keeping my face shielded without getting too moist.
- matsemann 3y agoI don't feel the need for this for commuting by bike, even in cold Norway. Mostly because I for commuting am never that out of breath that my lungs hurt. However, I use the Lung Plus variant often when cross country skiing. When it's -15C and below, pushing myself for an hour or more outdoors can make me cough all evening. Lots of people have cold induced asthma from training too hard outdoors in their youths. But with this I'm fine. Also, the main point for me isn't necessarily the temperature, but that it retains more moisture. -15C can feel vastly different in humid Oslo, compared to the dryness of the mountain pass Hardangervidda. This feels like it "helps" avoiding dry coughing. I don't really like the mask variants. If covid thought people with glasses anything, it's that masks fogs everything up! My Lung Plus mostly fogs if I'm standing still, then I breath straight ahead and into my glasses, otherwise it's fine. My girlfriend however recently bought a "OXYO one", which is the same concept. But it has more of a "snorkel" bite piece, and moves the air to the sides instead. So it's a bit smarter in that regard. I guess looks is the main drawback. And how the saliva freezes, heh, look at the icicle in my picture. This is me the other day in -24C: https://imgur.com/a/NXm8P79 https://imgur.com/a/NXm8P79
- fsckboy 3y ago>And how the saliva freezes, heh, look at the icicle in my picture it's probably condensate from the humidity of breath, no?
- matsemann 3y agoYeah, mostly. But when it thaws it's quite sticky, so definitely some spit as well!
- glormph 3y agoI considered a lung plus but the risk of tripping while running and it hitting my teeth made me buy a mask instead which also covers the nose. Icicles form on that too though.
- matsemann 3y agoThat's why I added a string to it and around my neck. Then I can just spit it out with little consequences if I approach something scary. But for skiing that's mostly corners at the end of a steep hill. For running I guess a fall could happen at any time.
- btbuildem 3y agoI live where temperatures go below -20C routinely in the winter. I also cycle year round (commute, groceries, etc), and there's definitely an art to gearing up for physical activity in that type of weather. Majority of face coverings seem to have the same weakness: moisture. Exhaled breath dampens them, and if that's not gross enough, as inhaled breath pulls cold air in, they freeze up. The best solution I've found is the 3M Aura valved N95 respirator. It's breathable enough so that even with moderate to high cardio activity I don't feel short of breath. The exhalation valve routes most of the warm moist air out -- while condensation drips off the valve, the filter material remains relatively dry and does not freeze up. This, combined with a helmet, balaclava and wraparound ski goggles makes for a pretty impervious getup [1]. The heat exchanger feature is an interesting one. One idea that immediately comes to mind is using body heat to warm the air intake. A piece of avalanche safety gear called Avalung [2] could provide a starting point (eg, if worn under winter clothing instead of on top of it). I imagine other solutions from industries where people work in hazardous air conditions could also be adapted. Personally, I'd love me a little DIY hazmat rig that can effectively filter intake air, neatly deal with the exhale moisture, while rocking that post-apocalypse punk aesthetic. The era of insidious airborne pathogens seems to be upon us, and with the climate upheaval, the oppressive forest fire smoke of last year will seem quaint so very soon. 1: https://i.imgur.com/CheNY96.png https://i.imgur.com/CheNY96.png (earlier iteration before the valved Aura) 2: http://blog.alpineinstitute.com/2012/12/the-avalung.html http://blog.alpineinstitute.com/2012/12/the-avalung.html
- dylan604 3y ago> 2: http://blog.alpineinstitute.com/2012/12/the-avalung.html http://blog.alpineinstitute.com/2012/12/the-avalung.html "One thing to keep in mind is that this will not make you invincible. Many avalanche victims are injured or killed by the trauma – the force of an avalanche – and not by suffocation. The Avalung will not of course do anything to help this. " Now, I'm thinking as part of the backpack system, it has a protection system similar to the Mars rover that inflated a large inflatable shield that allowed the landing without any kind of chutes. So from the backpack, this shield would inflate either from a manual pull of a cord or when it detects you've taken a tumble.
- Metacelsus 3y agoFunny, I was just thinking about making something like this during cold weather last week.
- zwieback 3y agoThis is kind of cool but I do have one question: I notice a lot of cold-bragging going on, people talking about how it's negative -20C or -30C outside, etc. When I google typical winter temperatures in the area those people live it usually turns out that the quoted temp is the 10 or 20 year record. And don't get me started about windchill...
- WXLCKNO 3y agoJust looked and close to me the record low was -37C but we still get -30 every winter for sure and -20 on many days throughout the winter. (Quebec) Probably just a normal distribution
- zwieback 3y agoYeah, that's legit pretty chilly. Quebec City in winter is on my bucket list.
- mrguyorama 3y agoGo visit the Carnival de Quebec! Stay in the Ice hotel! Spend too much money!
- Moru 3y agoTemperatures can be extremely variated in very short distances depending on where the cold air gets stuck and where it moves away. Just now when I did my evening ride I had to stop after 5 km and put on goggles after the temp went down 10 degrees compared to the start location. I badly regretted not putting on the extra cotton layer. On the other hand some people use an IR thermometer to measure temperature outside which gives the completely wrong temperature. Can be 10-20 degrees lower than air temperature.
- 0xbadcafebee 3y agoI bought an oversized polyester fleece balaclava with drawstring at a truck stop. Because it's too big for me it leaves room within the balaclava, so it retains warm air, but still breathes well. I haven't tried it in arctic temps but it works decently at -10F with wind.
- KennyBlanken 3y agoYour body has a built-in device that does exactly what all these devices described do, along with providing some filtration of air before it gets to your lungs. It's called "your nose." https://www.google.com/search?q=athletes+nasal+breathing https://www.google.com/search?q=athletes+nasal+breathing
- binary132 3y agoI tend to get exercise-induced asthma when I run if it’s near or below freezing. I wonder which of these would be suitable for that.
- e44858 3y agoExercise-induced asthma is likely caused by dehydration of the airway surface: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6834710/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6834710/ Increasing the air temperature is not enough, you also need to increase humidity. It also helps to keep the body hydrated by constantly drinking water with electrolytes throughout the workout.
- binary132 3y agoInteresting, thank you for that information! But if it's not primarily cold-related, I wonder why I don't experience it as intensely when it's warmer? I guess because of the dryness of cold air? But then, wouldn't cold air absorb less moisture?
- e44858 3y agoI live in a desert climate, and I frequently get exercise-induced asthma in the early summer when it's hot and dry. A useful metric is the dew point, for me asthma kicks in when the dew point approaches freezing. If you live in a more humid climate, warmer weather usually means higher dew points, so it's only dry in the winter when the air is too cold to hold the moisture (because dew point can't ever exceed temperature).
- vinni2 3y agoIs it just me or the website won’t open?