4 ms·

I don't think that's the problem. The problem is "publish or perish" and the fact that survival and job advancement depend on quantity over quality of publicati

by D13Fd 3y ago

I don't think that's the problem. The problem is "publish or perish" and the fact that survival and job advancement depend on quantity over quality of publications. That drives a huge demand to be published, and the purpose of getting published is not to advance science but to get more bullet points on an a C.V.

bee_rider 3y ago
The fact that we pull metrics (for hiring) from the scientific record causes the publish-or-perish problem, so I’m not sure I see a disagreement here.
- chengiz 3y ago
  You are reversing cause and effect. You "perish" by being unable to procure grants. Grants require a publishing record. Why? Because estimating success is harder than simply looking up a list. The entire system works that way. The hiring procedures are simply following this system.
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
beezlebroxxxxxx 3y ago
I agree. One thing that is pretty depressing to anyone that spends time in grad school or in academia is that universities and colleges put barely any importance on a professor/scholar's teaching ability. Education is simply not the main focus at all. Instead, they view scholars as research machines. Rather than giving research and scholarly inquiry the time and patience it requires (a lot), they would have published research occur like clockwork and in many cases regardless of the quality of that published research. This looks better for the school; but leads to middling research at best and often shady stuff by harried researchers, and a subpar teaching experience for most students who are always second fiddle to the endless demands to publish. The school benefits (per se, they don't like getting caught in scandals of their own making, of course), while researchers and students get subpar experiences all around.
- life-and-quiet 3y ago
  Exactly why I left academia with my Master's and didn't pursue a PhD. A few years into my professional life I met a PhD who had actually gotten tenure and gave it up to come work in industry. When I asked him whether he missed academia he said, "I miss the idea of it, but the idea isn't what it is."
searine 3y ago
>"publish or perish" and the fact that survival and job advancement depend on quantity over quality of publications. I mean, kind of but not really. Any academic of even marginal skill can smell a padded CV from a mile away. The type that do this are not serious people and will waste your time and resources. Knowing how to identify an imposter is a survival trait. Usually the type to pad a CV with garbage are eyeing admin or corporate gigs, not academic success. A search committee or tenure committee wouldn't look too kindly at a bunch of wacky papers in the east austrian journal of ass-scratch. Yes there is huge demand to be published, but quality matters a lot if you intend to seriously participate in the scientific community.
- pvaldes 3y ago
  > Any academic of even marginal skill can smell a padded CV from a mile away A couple drops of "Eau de Népotisme" and the smell goes away miraculously. Torturing your job requisites so only the desired local candidate can apply is a way to "solve" it.
  - cycomanic 3y ago
    In my experience this happens very rarely. In most places that I'm aware of, there is a very strong aversion to hiring local candidates for tenured (or tenure track) positions. For example, in Germany it is extremely rare to become a professor at the. University where you did your phd/postdoc. It's almost always seen a something not quite right. Now there is still lots of politics involved in the hiring process. Tenured positions are rare and often the other academics on the committee want to candidates which strengthen their own research area (although interestingly if there is a colleague down the corridor or someone at a university half way around the world who can do some technique you require, collaboration is much more likely to happen with the external person)
    - pvaldes 3y ago
      Is inversely proportional to the scarcity of the resources available

by D13Fd 3y ago

bee_rider 3y ago

The fact that we pull metrics (for hiring) from the scientific record causes the publish-or-perish problem, so I’m not sure I see a disagreement here.

chengiz 3y ago
You are reversing cause and effect. You "perish" by being unable to procure grants. Grants require a publishing record. Why? Because estimating success is harder than simply looking up a list. The entire system works that way. The hiring procedures are simply following this system.

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]

beezlebroxxxxxx 3y ago

I agree. One thing that is pretty depressing to anyone that spends time in grad school or in academia is that universities and colleges put barely any importance on a professor/scholar's teaching ability. Education is simply not the main focus at all. Instead, they view scholars as research machines. Rather than giving research and scholarly inquiry the time and patience it requires (a lot), they would have published research occur like clockwork and in many cases regardless of the quality of that published research. This looks better for the school; but leads to middling research at best and often shady stuff by harried researchers, and a subpar teaching experience for most students who are always second fiddle to the endless demands to publish. The school benefits (per se, they don't like getting caught in scandals of their own making, of course), while researchers and students get subpar experiences all around.

life-and-quiet 3y ago
Exactly why I left academia with my Master's and didn't pursue a PhD. A few years into my professional life I met a PhD who had actually gotten tenure and gave it up to come work in industry. When I asked him whether he missed academia he said, "I miss the idea of it, but the idea isn't what it is."

searine 3y ago

>"publish or perish" and the fact that survival and job advancement depend on quantity over quality of publications. I mean, kind of but not really. Any academic of even marginal skill can smell a padded CV from a mile away. The type that do this are not serious people and will waste your time and resources. Knowing how to identify an imposter is a survival trait. Usually the type to pad a CV with garbage are eyeing admin or corporate gigs, not academic success. A search committee or tenure committee wouldn't look too kindly at a bunch of wacky papers in the east austrian journal of ass-scratch. Yes there is huge demand to be published, but quality matters a lot if you intend to seriously participate in the scientific community.

pvaldes 3y ago
> Any academic of even marginal skill can smell a padded CV from a mile away A couple drops of "Eau de Népotisme" and the smell goes away miraculously. Torturing your job requisites so only the desired local candidate can apply is a way to "solve" it.
- cycomanic 3y ago
  In my experience this happens very rarely. In most places that I'm aware of, there is a very strong aversion to hiring local candidates for tenured (or tenure track) positions. For example, in Germany it is extremely rare to become a professor at the. University where you did your phd/postdoc. It's almost always seen a something not quite right. Now there is still lots of politics involved in the hiring process. Tenured positions are rare and often the other academics on the committee want to candidates which strengthen their own research area (although interestingly if there is a colleague down the corridor or someone at a university half way around the world who can do some technique you require, collaboration is much more likely to happen with the external person)
  - pvaldes 3y ago
    Is inversely proportional to the scarcity of the resources available