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Crypto bro using a self-proclaimed capitalist website to argue why colonization is morally good, ackshually. What's the utilitarian argument in favor of genoci

by hmcq6 3y ago

Crypto bro using a self-proclaimed capitalist website to argue why colonization is morally good, ackshually. What's the utilitarian argument in favor of genocide?

ETH_start 3y ago
The statistics demonstrate that capitalism is morally good, your tribalistic aversions to capitalism/human-freedom notwithstanding. It ended slavery and genocide worldwide. Unlike other traditions, it upholds principles of humanitarianism above utilitarianism. It was the opponents of classical liberalism that instituted lockdowns around the world during the COVID pandemic "for the greater good". It was the Aztecs, pre-colonization, that sacrificed 40,000 children in one day, "for the greater good".
- bitxbitxbitcoin 3y ago
  Slavery and genocide are very much still with us.
  - ETH_start 3y ago
    Fair point. I meant ended it as a globally accepted mass-practice, and consequently made it much less prevalent than it had been in the past.
- hmcq6 3y ago
  Ohh you're not a serious person. Got it. If anyone... I guess any children are reading this my tip off was: "It ended slavery and genocide worldwide." This... is an absurd thing to claim. I'm not even gonna address OP anymore because this is flat-earth levels of bullshit. It's the definition of correlation does not equal causation. First of all, capitalism didn't end slavery. I can't speak for the whole globe but it sure as fuck didn't end slavery in America. The US stopped paying taxes to the monarchy in 1765. 10 years later we had the revolutionary war. In 1776 the Declaration of Independence was signed, in 1787 the constitution was signed. We still had slaves in the US. In 1862 the slaves were "freed" but it took 3 more years for news to travel and for slavery to actually be abolished in the US. Even still black people were effectively denied many rights until the 1960's So, whichever date you want to pick out of that soup and decide "this is when capitalism solved slavery", you're wrong. And that doesn't even touch on American capitalists fencing slave labor in the modern day/recent past. Second, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_genocides https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_genocides I'm not going to go point by point but I guarenteeeeeee you can find examples in that list to disprove the second half of the quote. Like there's literally a genocide going on right now and both the parties committing genocide are capitalists, but... yeah I don't even know how to engage with this level of head-empty-diamond-hands-stronk
  - ETH_start 3y ago
    Ohh you're not a serious person. Got it. If anyone... I guess any children are reading this my tip off was: " You gotta stop debating people like this on Hacker News. Even if you disagree with someone, you should refrain from mockery/sarcasm that evokes flame wars. First of all, capitalism didn't end slavery. Western states, which were among the most capitalist in the world, played a significant role in ending slavery as a global institution. The British Empire, the most prominent colonial power, embarked on a century-long global campaign that compelled numerous states to formally abolish slavery, a practice that had existed since the dawn of human history. And yes, slavery and genocide still exist and occur. My comment was simplistic, as I assumed the reader would grasp the point I was trying to convey. My point was that there is now a global consensus that slavery and genocide are unacceptable, and this consensus did not exist in the pre-capitalist era. This consensus has resulted in slavery/genocide becoming far less prevalent than they were in the past, as any quantitative analysis reveals. And the emergence of this consensus was due primarily to the influence of predominantly capitalist states like the United States, and before it, the British Empire.
    - hmcq6 3y ago
      This isn't a debate. There's no debate moderator. There's no points. If you wanna schedule something formal send me some contact info, we'll put it on twitch, but either way debates don't prove anything. This is an internet community. I'm trying not to be too much of a dickhead but I'll be damned if I can't call an idea stupid. You said a silly thing. It's like saying "2 + 2 = 5" with no further explanation. Doesn't mean you're dumb. We all make mistakes. But it's one mistake to type it and it's a second mistake to send it and think "hell yeah, people will read that and know what I mean". And now you're coming back and doubling down with a "no you didn't understand me". No, man. No, I did understand you. You're just making a claim that doesn't hold weight. You've offered no more proof of your claim than I have that... hmm lets think... "lightbulbs solved slavery". Your argument is akin to me saying: "Lightbulb, invented 1879. Know what you saw a lot of in 1870 that you don't see any more? slavery. Know what you see a lot of now that they didn't have in 1870? That's right, lightbulbs ended slavery. My point was that there is now a global consensus that slavery and genocide are unacceptable, and this consensus did not exist in the pre-lightbulb era." And like, both our theories are fun theories, but you haven't shown your work to convince anyone that your theory is correct. You're just vaguely gesturing at literally all of history and saying "see". Why even drop the "well, ackshually" in the first place if you don't want to do the work of arguing your case?
- g-b-r 3y ago
  Do show us the statistics that demonstrate it
  - ETH_start 3y ago
    "According to a popular view that I call “two cheers for capitalism,” capitalism’s effect on development is ambiguous and mixed. This paper empirically investigates that view. I find that it’s wrong. Citizens in countries that became more capitalist over the last quarter century became wealthier, healthier, more educated, and politically freer. Citizens in countries that became significantly less capitalist over this period endured stagnating income, shortening life spans, smaller gains in education, and increasingly oppressive political regimes. The data unequivocally evidence capitalism’s superiority for development. Full-force cheerleading for capitalism is well deserved and three cheers are in order instead of two." source: https://doi.org/10.1007/s12115-010-9305-7 https://doi.org/10.1007/s12115-010-9305-7 Market-based reforms across the world, including in China, India, Chile, and South Korea, are credited with lifting millions out of poverty, and bringing about a profound increase in average incomes. Economist Lee Ohanian compares the labor market policies of Europe and the United States in his essay The Effect of Economic Freedom on Labor Market Efficiency and Performance. Compared to the United States, European nations have higher minimum wages, stricter rules that prevent the firing of workers, and high rates of unionization. These rules are intended to protect workers, but Ohanian finds that they discourage employment and result in lower compensation rates. His analysis indicates: >These findings have important implications for economic policy making. They indicate that policies that enhance the free and efficient operation of the labor market significantly expand opportunities and increase prosperity. Moreover, they suggest that economic policy reforms can substantially improve economic performance in countries with heavily regulated labor markets and high tax rates. source: https://www.hoover.org/research/capitalism-vs-socialism-2 https://www.hoover.org/research/capitalism-vs-socialism-2 A strong correlation is found between lower rates of government spending as a share of GDP, and the rate of economic growth: https://web.archive.org/web/20170821004405/http://ime.bg/uploads/335309_OptimalSizeOfGovernment.pdf https://web.archive.org/web/20170821004405/http://ime.bg/upl...

by hmcq6 3y ago

Crypto bro using a self-proclaimed capitalist website to argue why colonization is morally good, ackshually. What's the utilitarian argument in favor of genocide?

ETH_start 3y ago

The statistics demonstrate that capitalism is morally good, your tribalistic aversions to capitalism/human-freedom notwithstanding. It ended slavery and genocide worldwide. Unlike other traditions, it upholds principles of humanitarianism above utilitarianism. It was the opponents of classical liberalism that instituted lockdowns around the world during the COVID pandemic "for the greater good". It was the Aztecs, pre-colonization, that sacrificed 40,000 children in one day, "for the greater good".

bitxbitxbitcoin 3y ago
Slavery and genocide are very much still with us.
- ETH_start 3y ago
  Fair point. I meant ended it as a globally accepted mass-practice, and consequently made it much less prevalent than it had been in the past.
hmcq6 3y ago
Ohh you're not a serious person. Got it. If anyone... I guess any children are reading this my tip off was: "It ended slavery and genocide worldwide." This... is an absurd thing to claim. I'm not even gonna address OP anymore because this is flat-earth levels of bullshit. It's the definition of correlation does not equal causation. First of all, capitalism didn't end slavery. I can't speak for the whole globe but it sure as fuck didn't end slavery in America. The US stopped paying taxes to the monarchy in 1765. 10 years later we had the revolutionary war. In 1776 the Declaration of Independence was signed, in 1787 the constitution was signed. We still had slaves in the US. In 1862 the slaves were "freed" but it took 3 more years for news to travel and for slavery to actually be abolished in the US. Even still black people were effectively denied many rights until the 1960's So, whichever date you want to pick out of that soup and decide "this is when capitalism solved slavery", you're wrong. And that doesn't even touch on American capitalists fencing slave labor in the modern day/recent past. Second, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_genocides https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_genocides I'm not going to go point by point but I guarenteeeeeee you can find examples in that list to disprove the second half of the quote. Like there's literally a genocide going on right now and both the parties committing genocide are capitalists, but... yeah I don't even know how to engage with this level of head-empty-diamond-hands-stronk
- ETH_start 3y ago
  Ohh you're not a serious person. Got it. If anyone... I guess any children are reading this my tip off was: " You gotta stop debating people like this on Hacker News. Even if you disagree with someone, you should refrain from mockery/sarcasm that evokes flame wars. First of all, capitalism didn't end slavery. Western states, which were among the most capitalist in the world, played a significant role in ending slavery as a global institution. The British Empire, the most prominent colonial power, embarked on a century-long global campaign that compelled numerous states to formally abolish slavery, a practice that had existed since the dawn of human history. And yes, slavery and genocide still exist and occur. My comment was simplistic, as I assumed the reader would grasp the point I was trying to convey. My point was that there is now a global consensus that slavery and genocide are unacceptable, and this consensus did not exist in the pre-capitalist era. This consensus has resulted in slavery/genocide becoming far less prevalent than they were in the past, as any quantitative analysis reveals. And the emergence of this consensus was due primarily to the influence of predominantly capitalist states like the United States, and before it, the British Empire.
  - hmcq6 3y ago
    This isn't a debate. There's no debate moderator. There's no points. If you wanna schedule something formal send me some contact info, we'll put it on twitch, but either way debates don't prove anything. This is an internet community. I'm trying not to be too much of a dickhead but I'll be damned if I can't call an idea stupid. You said a silly thing. It's like saying "2 + 2 = 5" with no further explanation. Doesn't mean you're dumb. We all make mistakes. But it's one mistake to type it and it's a second mistake to send it and think "hell yeah, people will read that and know what I mean". And now you're coming back and doubling down with a "no you didn't understand me". No, man. No, I did understand you. You're just making a claim that doesn't hold weight. You've offered no more proof of your claim than I have that... hmm lets think... "lightbulbs solved slavery". Your argument is akin to me saying: "Lightbulb, invented 1879. Know what you saw a lot of in 1870 that you don't see any more? slavery. Know what you see a lot of now that they didn't have in 1870? That's right, lightbulbs ended slavery. My point was that there is now a global consensus that slavery and genocide are unacceptable, and this consensus did not exist in the pre-lightbulb era." And like, both our theories are fun theories, but you haven't shown your work to convince anyone that your theory is correct. You're just vaguely gesturing at literally all of history and saying "see". Why even drop the "well, ackshually" in the first place if you don't want to do the work of arguing your case?
g-b-r 3y ago
Do show us the statistics that demonstrate it
- ETH_start 3y ago
  "According to a popular view that I call “two cheers for capitalism,” capitalism’s effect on development is ambiguous and mixed. This paper empirically investigates that view. I find that it’s wrong. Citizens in countries that became more capitalist over the last quarter century became wealthier, healthier, more educated, and politically freer. Citizens in countries that became significantly less capitalist over this period endured stagnating income, shortening life spans, smaller gains in education, and increasingly oppressive political regimes. The data unequivocally evidence capitalism’s superiority for development. Full-force cheerleading for capitalism is well deserved and three cheers are in order instead of two." source: https://doi.org/10.1007/s12115-010-9305-7 https://doi.org/10.1007/s12115-010-9305-7 Market-based reforms across the world, including in China, India, Chile, and South Korea, are credited with lifting millions out of poverty, and bringing about a profound increase in average incomes. Economist Lee Ohanian compares the labor market policies of Europe and the United States in his essay The Effect of Economic Freedom on Labor Market Efficiency and Performance. Compared to the United States, European nations have higher minimum wages, stricter rules that prevent the firing of workers, and high rates of unionization. These rules are intended to protect workers, but Ohanian finds that they discourage employment and result in lower compensation rates. His analysis indicates: >These findings have important implications for economic policy making. They indicate that policies that enhance the free and efficient operation of the labor market significantly expand opportunities and increase prosperity. Moreover, they suggest that economic policy reforms can substantially improve economic performance in countries with heavily regulated labor markets and high tax rates. source: https://www.hoover.org/research/capitalism-vs-socialism-2 https://www.hoover.org/research/capitalism-vs-socialism-2 A strong correlation is found between lower rates of government spending as a share of GDP, and the rate of economic growth: https://web.archive.org/web/20170821004405/http://ime.bg/uploads/335309_OptimalSizeOfGovernment.pdf https://web.archive.org/web/20170821004405/http://ime.bg/upl...