5 ms·

Decolonizing the Engineering Curriculum

4 points by luu 3y ago

jruohonen 3y ago
I have no forceful opinion on these things but surely those "brave spaces" sound much better than those "safe spaces".
- hmcq6 3y ago
  It's not at all the same thing. It's actually a pretty meaningless phrase if you think about it for a second. A safe space is a place where you won't be challenged. A brave space is a place where you will be challenged and held to the standards of civility politics, or in other words it's just anywhere that isn't a safe space. It's basically just rules for a less formal debate. But debates don't prove anything and they don't seem to change minds. Every topic under the sun has already been debated to death and posted on youtube, why do we need to let it play out again in the classroom? Who gains from this? Now, with the right authority leading the classroom and all willing participants a brave space would be a fantastic place to have discussions. But on the handful of hot-button topics I can think of right now it does put the onus on a group who are very likely victims (some of which may not have publicly come out about their status) to have a civil conversation with people who could have just as easily found this info online. To be clear, if you're not willing to enforce a safe space for your students but you are willing to enforce a "brave space", I appreciate that. I appreciate you understanding and making that distinction clear. I just don't know how a "brave space" is any different than following the rules of the school? And if the educator feels uniquely qualified to moderate this debate why not just prepare a lecture?
  - jruohonen 3y ago
    > I just don't know how a "brave space" is any different than following the rules of the school? Me neither. And not only the rules of a school but also the laws of a country. Although I haven't contemplated it fully, I tend to align with Mrs. Anderson: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38260137 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38260137
    - hmcq6 3y ago
      I've never heard of this person or organization and I don't really see what this article has to do with "brave spaces" except to be a good example of someone that I wouldn't trust to be a neutral arbiter. That said the article isn't horrible. I think she's stretching the definition of "pogrom". The article makes no mention of rising Islamophobia. And since the author is surprisingly sparse when it comes to enumerating examples of hate speech I'm hesitant to fully agree. There's a lot of nut jobs out there trying to redefine what is and isn't hate speech right now. Like people who want to redefine "From the river to the sea, Palestine will be free" as hate speech. No doubt, some of what went down at Cornell was anti-semitic. But, if I put aside those complaints I more or less agree with her. But... I'm not dumb enough to think that literally trying to police speech that makes you uncomfortable is somehow better than a safe space and Mrs. Anderson is walking a precarious line.
      - jruohonen 3y ago
        https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Index_on_Censorship https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Index_on_Censorship
        hmcq6 3y ago
        Who watches the watchmen? I would think someone who's whole career is about censorship would be extra careful when arguing that speech should be censored but... something something bias..
        jruohonen 3y ago
        Indeed. Given their glorious past regarding samizdat and related things, I think they're probably between a rock and a hard place with these things. Here is an example of the great essays they've published: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38634298 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38634298
        hmcq6 3y ago
ETH_start 3y ago
Identifying and acknowledging past mistakes should not lead to the false notion that Western thought is inferior or that colonization was not overall beneficial. The following link provides data supporting this view: https://www.visualcapitalist.com/6-charts-show-world-improving/ https://www.visualcapitalist.com/6-charts-show-world-improvi.... Western ideas, customs, and institutions that enabled significant technological advancements and population growth, which in turn precipitated colonization, should be celebrated, and yes, in some aspects, considered superior. The continuous efforts by academic disciplines to humble and demoralize the majority through socio-economic critiques of their culture and traditions need to stop.
- hmcq6 3y ago
  Crypto bro using a self-proclaimed capitalist website to argue why colonization is morally good, ackshually. What's the utilitarian argument in favor of genocide?
  - ETH_start 3y ago
    The statistics demonstrate that capitalism is morally good, your tribalistic aversions to capitalism/human-freedom notwithstanding. It ended slavery and genocide worldwide. Unlike other traditions, it upholds principles of humanitarianism above utilitarianism. It was the opponents of classical liberalism that instituted lockdowns around the world during the COVID pandemic "for the greater good". It was the Aztecs, pre-colonization, that sacrificed 40,000 children in one day, "for the greater good".
    - bitxbitxbitcoin 3y ago
      Slavery and genocide are very much still with us.
      - ETH_start 3y ago
        Fair point. I meant ended it as a globally accepted mass-practice, and consequently made it much less prevalent than it had been in the past.
proc0 3y ago
The building is not going to support itself with this theory.
rokkitmensch 3y ago
I would love to see a case study of decolonizing my undergraduate vibrations course. I'm sure partial differential equations are absolutely racist in some way my cis-normative ass can't possibly percieve absent this flavor of the rééducation complex.
6R1M0R4CL3 3y ago
the chinese are watching the socialist-communist woke 1-digit IQ morons destroy all the USA education system, watching the US army go so woke they can't even recruit, and meanwhile the chinese are training their army to kill people with shovels in case they run out of bullets by training them to kill animals with shovels until they do one-shovel-hit kills. go on USA. your path to being weak and past is well engaged.

4 points by luu 3y ago

jruohonen 3y ago

I have no forceful opinion on these things but surely those "brave spaces" sound much better than those "safe spaces".

hmcq6 3y ago
It's not at all the same thing. It's actually a pretty meaningless phrase if you think about it for a second. A safe space is a place where you won't be challenged. A brave space is a place where you will be challenged and held to the standards of civility politics, or in other words it's just anywhere that isn't a safe space. It's basically just rules for a less formal debate. But debates don't prove anything and they don't seem to change minds. Every topic under the sun has already been debated to death and posted on youtube, why do we need to let it play out again in the classroom? Who gains from this? Now, with the right authority leading the classroom and all willing participants a brave space would be a fantastic place to have discussions. But on the handful of hot-button topics I can think of right now it does put the onus on a group who are very likely victims (some of which may not have publicly come out about their status) to have a civil conversation with people who could have just as easily found this info online. To be clear, if you're not willing to enforce a safe space for your students but you are willing to enforce a "brave space", I appreciate that. I appreciate you understanding and making that distinction clear. I just don't know how a "brave space" is any different than following the rules of the school? And if the educator feels uniquely qualified to moderate this debate why not just prepare a lecture?
- jruohonen 3y ago
  > I just don't know how a "brave space" is any different than following the rules of the school? Me neither. And not only the rules of a school but also the laws of a country. Although I haven't contemplated it fully, I tend to align with Mrs. Anderson: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38260137 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38260137
  - hmcq6 3y ago
    I've never heard of this person or organization and I don't really see what this article has to do with "brave spaces" except to be a good example of someone that I wouldn't trust to be a neutral arbiter. That said the article isn't horrible. I think she's stretching the definition of "pogrom". The article makes no mention of rising Islamophobia. And since the author is surprisingly sparse when it comes to enumerating examples of hate speech I'm hesitant to fully agree. There's a lot of nut jobs out there trying to redefine what is and isn't hate speech right now. Like people who want to redefine "From the river to the sea, Palestine will be free" as hate speech. No doubt, some of what went down at Cornell was anti-semitic. But, if I put aside those complaints I more or less agree with her. But... I'm not dumb enough to think that literally trying to police speech that makes you uncomfortable is somehow better than a safe space and Mrs. Anderson is walking a precarious line.
    - jruohonen 3y ago
      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Index_on_Censorship https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Index_on_Censorship
      - hmcq6 3y ago
        Who watches the watchmen? I would think someone who's whole career is about censorship would be extra careful when arguing that speech should be censored but... something something bias..
        jruohonen 3y ago
        Indeed. Given their glorious past regarding samizdat and related things, I think they're probably between a rock and a hard place with these things. Here is an example of the great essays they've published: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38634298 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38634298
        hmcq6 3y ago

ETH_start 3y ago

Identifying and acknowledging past mistakes should not lead to the false notion that Western thought is inferior or that colonization was not overall beneficial. The following link provides data supporting this view: https://www.visualcapitalist.com/6-charts-show-world-improving/ https://www.visualcapitalist.com/6-charts-show-world-improvi.... Western ideas, customs, and institutions that enabled significant technological advancements and population growth, which in turn precipitated colonization, should be celebrated, and yes, in some aspects, considered superior. The continuous efforts by academic disciplines to humble and demoralize the majority through socio-economic critiques of their culture and traditions need to stop.

hmcq6 3y ago
Crypto bro using a self-proclaimed capitalist website to argue why colonization is morally good, ackshually. What's the utilitarian argument in favor of genocide?
- ETH_start 3y ago
  The statistics demonstrate that capitalism is morally good, your tribalistic aversions to capitalism/human-freedom notwithstanding. It ended slavery and genocide worldwide. Unlike other traditions, it upholds principles of humanitarianism above utilitarianism. It was the opponents of classical liberalism that instituted lockdowns around the world during the COVID pandemic "for the greater good". It was the Aztecs, pre-colonization, that sacrificed 40,000 children in one day, "for the greater good".
  - bitxbitxbitcoin 3y ago
    Slavery and genocide are very much still with us.
    - ETH_start 3y ago
      Fair point. I meant ended it as a globally accepted mass-practice, and consequently made it much less prevalent than it had been in the past.

proc0 3y ago

The building is not going to support itself with this theory.

rokkitmensch 3y ago

I would love to see a case study of decolonizing my undergraduate vibrations course. I'm sure partial differential equations are absolutely racist in some way my cis-normative ass can't possibly percieve absent this flavor of the rééducation complex.

6R1M0R4CL3 3y ago

the chinese are watching the socialist-communist woke 1-digit IQ morons destroy all the USA education system, watching the US army go so woke they can't even recruit, and meanwhile the chinese are training their army to kill people with shovels in case they run out of bullets by training them to kill animals with shovels until they do one-shovel-hit kills. go on USA. your path to being weak and past is well engaged.