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'Pokémon with Guns' Game Goes Viral, Angering Nintendo Loyalists
- boomboomsubban 3y agohttps://archive.is/ISN8k https://archive.is/ISN8k
- jwcooper 3y agoThis is a pretty good video (11 minutes) where a video game IP lawyer discusses palworld vs pokemon: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TkNcV0kpxvg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TkNcV0kpxvg Mostly surrounding the similarities in pokemon vs pal visual design. Spoiler...it's complicated.
- Zambyte 3y agoEvery day the idea that people (or even corporations!) can own ideas becomes more and more absurd to me.
- c22 3y agoThe more I hear about it the more convinced I am that we should only allow IP to be held by individuals (and make it non-transferrable). Instead of selling your idea to some company you could instead just sell a promise not to sue them for the duration of your claim (which I'd be fine setting to your natural lifetime under this system).
- s1artibartfast 3y agoHow would that be any different than the current system, aside from the fact that IP rights always dies with the originator? Can you agree to let the firm renting the rights sue others for using it without contract?
- Zambyte 3y agoI really just think that repealing the system that imposes artificial scarcity on ideas would be the best at this point. It doesn't encourage creative work. No one decides to make art because they want to own its likeness. Tons of people have certainly stopped or decided not to start because we aren't allowed to stand on the shoulders of previous generations anymore though.
- duped 3y agoI wish every software developer who talks about "fair use" in software licensing would learn the first point they make in the video - fair use is a defense for infringement, it has to be argued in court.
- DanHulton 3y agoI can't speak to the legality of it, but a great many of Pokemon's earliest monster designs seemed to take... "incredible inspiration" from a variety of Dragon Quest enemies. Plus, the best parts of Palworld are the parts that do things with the game formula that Nintendo would never do -- yes, sure, guns, but also consequential crafting, base building & defense, survival elements, automation, and such. Sure, people grow attached to the design of the various monsters, so changing them now would be hard without drawing the ire of existing customers, but the game is absolutely not "Pokemon with Guns", it's an entirely different game that has creatures that bear a resemblance to popular Pokemon. (Oh, and the models are nicer with more unique animations than anything GameFreak has put out yet, too. I dunno, I find it hard to consider being a "Nintendo Loyalist" in this particular instance.)
- johnnyanmac 3y agoI mean, I think it's less that Nintendo doesnt want to do it and more that they don't fit with how Pokemon is run. Animal Crossing is one of Nintendo's 5 great pillars now and I'm sure all of that (except perhaps survival elements) would fit in fine. All that in a pokemon game sounds like the gimmick of the generation that pokemon's had since gen 3 (contests, Pokestar studio, pokemon amie, etc.). >the models are nicer with more unique animations than anything GameFreak has put out yet, too. ehh, I'm not sure I agree. this is a huge asethetic vs. fidelity argument. And honestly the pokemon models aren't even that bad when you look through the files. I looked through the pals and they just feel so generic, like most other monster raising compettiors.
- jevoten 3y ago> a great many of Pokemon's earliest monster designs seemed to take... "incredible inspiration" from a variety of Dragon Quest enemies And animals, real and mythological. We have: An ordinary dragon, but with its tail on fire: https://pokemon.fandom.com/wiki/Charizard https://pokemon.fandom.com/wiki/Charizard A turtle, but blue: https://pokemon.fandom.com/wiki/Squirtle https://pokemon.fandom.com/wiki/Squirtle A caterpillar: https://pokemon.fandom.com/wiki/Caterpie https://pokemon.fandom.com/wiki/Caterpie A chubby moth: https://pokemon.fandom.com/wiki/Butterfree https://pokemon.fandom.com/wiki/Butterfree A wasp, but with drills for hands: https://pokemon.fandom.com/wiki/Beedrill https://pokemon.fandom.com/wiki/Beedrill A bird: https://pokemon.fandom.com/wiki/Pidgey https://pokemon.fandom.com/wiki/Pidgey A purple rat (copying Milka's color scheme): https://pokemon.fandom.com/wiki/Rattata https://pokemon.fandom.com/wiki/Rattata A bigger bird: https://pokemon.fandom.com/wiki/Fearow https://pokemon.fandom.com/wiki/Fearow A snake: https://pokemon.fandom.com/wiki/Ekans https://pokemon.fandom.com/wiki/Ekans A cobra: https://pokemon.fandom.com/wiki/Arbok https://pokemon.fandom.com/wiki/Arbok An armadillo: https://pokemon.fandom.com/wiki/Sandshrew https://pokemon.fandom.com/wiki/Sandshrew The nine-tailed fox from Japanese mythology: https://pokemon.fandom.com/wiki/Ninetales https://pokemon.fandom.com/wiki/Ninetales The child version of the same: https://pokemon.fandom.com/wiki/Vulpix https://pokemon.fandom.com/wiki/Vulpix A bat: https://pokemon.fandom.com/wiki/Zubat https://pokemon.fandom.com/wiki/Zubat Another moth: https://pokemon.fandom.com/wiki/Venomoth https://pokemon.fandom.com/wiki/Venomoth An earthworm, but with a face: https://pokemon.fandom.com/wiki/Diglett https://pokemon.fandom.com/wiki/Diglett Just a persian cat: https://pokemon.fandom.com/wiki/Persian https://pokemon.fandom.com/wiki/Persian Pitcher plant, but with a face: https://pokemon.fandom.com/wiki/Victreebel https://pokemon.fandom.com/wiki/Victreebel A pony, but on fire: https://pokemon.fandom.com/wiki/Ponyta https://pokemon.fandom.com/wiki/Ponyta A horse, but on fire: https://pokemon.fandom.com/wiki/Rapidash https://pokemon.fandom.com/wiki/Rapidash A seal: https://pokemon.fandom.com/wiki/Seel https://pokemon.fandom.com/wiki/Seel Another seal: https://pokemon.fandom.com/wiki/Dewgong https://pokemon.fandom.com/wiki/Dewgong A crab: https://pokemon.fandom.com/wiki/Krabby https://pokemon.fandom.com/wiki/Krabby Another crab: https://pokemon.fandom.com/wiki/Kingler https://pokemon.fandom.com/wiki/Kingler Flag of Monaco, but a sphere: https://pokemon.fandom.com/wiki/Voltorb https://pokemon.fandom.com/wiki/Voltorb Flag of Poland, but a sphere: https://pokemon.fandom.com/wiki/Electrode https://pokemon.fandom.com/wiki/Electrode Eggs: https://pokemon.fandom.com/wiki/Exeggcute https://pokemon.fandom.com/wiki/Exeggcute Rhinoceros, but armored: https://pokemon.fandom.com/wiki/Rhyhorn https://pokemon.fandom.com/wiki/Rhyhorn A seahorse: https://pokemon.fandom.com/wiki/Horsea https://pokemon.fandom.com/wiki/Horsea A koi fish: https://pokemon.fandom.com/wiki/Goldeen https://pokemon.fandom.com/wiki/Goldeen A bull, but with three tails: https://pokemon.fandom.com/wiki/Tauros https://pokemon.fandom.com/wiki/Tauros Literally just a fish: https://pokemon.fandom.com/wiki/Magikarp https://pokemon.fandom.com/wiki/Magikarp I could keep going, but I think the point is made. The list at https://pokemon.fandom.com/wiki/List_of_Generation_I_Pok%C3%A9mon https://pokemon.fandom.com/wiki/List_of_Generation_I_Pok%C3%... has an "Origins" section for each Pokemon, and almost always it is something from the natural kingdom or mythology. If everything that could be argued "takes inspiration from" Pokemon is banned from use by anyone other than the Pokemon company, then we've effectively handed them ownership over the entire animal kingdom and human mythology.
- Dig1t 3y agoha that's so funny I just heard about this from my friends a few days ago. They are all pretty loyal Pokemon fans despite being in their 30's. They were all excited for this game, and as a fan myself, I have to agree that it does look pretty cool. There's already several copycat franchises that are obvious knock-offs of Pokemon, the biggest of which is probably Digimon. How is this any different than Digimon?
- Wowfunhappy 3y agoPersonally, I think the visual designs in Digimon are significantly more distinct from Pokemon.
- jeffwask 3y agoI found the borrowing from Zelda (Sounds, Fonts) to be more concerning than the Pokemon similarities. Like you mentioned, there are a ton of capture game clones that are similar. The Zelda lifts are the area where I feel they may be flying too close to the sun. Either way, the game has a fun loop and I'm not a Pokemon player more of a survival games enthusiast. Been a good time with friends I hope they are able to navigate the IP issues.
- dragontamer 3y ago> the biggest of which is probably Digimon Digimon is more about "other self", with exception of Cybersleuth and like Season 4 (which was Digimon but Power Rangers transformations). Only Cybersleuth (and other more recent games) were Pokemon "catch them" like plot-lines. Digimon are fully sentient beings equal to humans (or even in some cases, divinely inspired angels, devils, or gods). In many cases, they are the representation of a person's soul and the "other self" reflected in the digital-world. This is why when Tai feels courageous (his Crest is Courage), Agumon gets powered-up. Because Agumon is specifically connected to Tai. Palworld seems to be closer to Pokemon if anything, though the crafting stuff makes it look closer to Minecraft if anything. Some of my friends compare it to Ark:Evolved. "Pokemon but more grimdark" was probably Monster Rancher, if I were to pick a 90s clone series. Or the Persona series even.
- 3y ago
- zelias 3y agoThe success of Palworld speaks volumes about Nintendo/Gamefreak's failure to produce any meaningful gameplay innovation over the past few decades
- oneepic 3y agoDoes it? Survival/crafting games are popular these days, including shooters. I think someone was bound to make this kind of game eventually, and it's not a surprise people will play it.
- haunter 3y agoS/V sold 10 million copies in the first 3 days and ~25 million copies in the first year. Nintendo is doing fine. To me the success of Palworld shows two things: 1, the survival-crafting genre is still a gold mine after all these years YET no AAA studio wants to touch it for some reason. Only Early Access indie games in the field. 2, Nintendo would break all records if they start releasing their games on multiple platforms.
- johnnyanmac 3y ago>he survival-crafting genre is still a gold mine after all these years YET no AAA studio wants to touch it for some reason games take years to make. If a AAA started making a survival game the second Valheim came out, it'd still be 2-3 years out. Indies are more agile and can capitalize on trends before they are sucked dry. >2, Nintendo would break all records if they start releasing their games on multiple platforms. if you need to spend 3 times the amount of money to make twice the money, the business choice is clear unless you can show something like stocks soaring over the decision. Japan hasn't had inflation for 30 years, so there's much less incentive to chase those kinds of stock gains. So you play it safe. Also, why is death such a make or break feature for you?
- epolanski 3y agoAnimal Crossing by nintendo is crafting/surviving.
- 3y ago
- epolanski 3y agoPeople are blind if they see pokemon in the game. Very little but catching palms resembles pokemon gameplay-wise.
- tourmalinetaco 3y agoGameplay wise yeah, but some Pals are very Pokémon-like (and I love it).
- epolanski 3y agoPokemon's are super generic themselves or look like creatures from other videogames (such as Dragon Quest) bar few that are more unique.
- nickstinemates 3y agoAll of the pokemon enthusiasts I know have flocked to the game and are loving it. The breeding/traits in particular. I have been running a dedicated server with ~10 people on it since launch and it has been incredible. We'll see how it looks in a month, but massive success out of the gate.
- tennisflyi 3y agoRegular Pokémon has breeding/traits
- nickstinemates 3y agoI know! That's a cross over in functionality that the serious (like, competitive, gen specific) pokemon players that I know are loving about palworld.
- tourmalinetaco 3y agoPalworld is certainly more interesting than Pokémon, especially as you can actually breed monsters together and make hybrids. I don’t know the specifics of the breeding yet however, but given the various traits on Pals it seems like that may be an interesting part as well. However I wonder if it will be as complex as Jogress lines in the old Digimon Story games. Essentially, every Digimon (sans Calumon) can turn into every other Digimon, and moves can be carried over. So for instance, if you want a Gabumon with Pepper Breath/Baby Flame you go Agumon > Greymon > MetalGreymon > WarGreymon + MetalGarurumon = Omegamon, Omegamon + WarGreymon = MetalGarurumon, then devolve back down to Gabumon. I’m not sure if it’s still possible in the newer DS games, but I know I spent hours pouring over lists to make fun thematic Digimon.
- MisterBastahrd 3y agoThe most comical part to me is the moral outrage by some folks who are "against Palworld" because you can essentially force your collection of animals into slave labor. Because storing them in balls and only allowing them out when you want them to fight to the death for you is such a great moral alternative.
- rightbyte 3y agoYe. The first Pokemon movie made Ash and friends realize "why are we pitting our pokemons against each other? It is cruel". But then Mewtwo made them all forgot everything. Kinda good self-reflection of the franchise though, really. It is essentially coq fights.
- tourmalinetaco 3y agoThe second movie showed the main villain’s entire game plan was to “catch them all”, and that he was inspired to capture the Legendary Bird Trio because of a Mew trading card, so there was definitely some amazing self-reflection going on back then. Nowadays the Pokémon movies are just ads for the merch of that Pokémon, rather than an interesting story + merch ads.
- johnnyanmac 3y agoI mean, they laid the groundwork 20 years ago if you look around for it. They made a huge emphasis (and still do to some extent) to show how Pokemon are intelligent beings and humanity is in a utopic state where they work alongside nature and pokemon to achieve goals. The anime emphasizes how a pokemon can defy a pokeball even after capture and can ignore a trainer's orders if inclined to. Pokemon have been shown to prefer or not prefer battling and have their own personal aspirations. some supplemental works detail how a pokeball is extremely comfortable and adapts to provide an environment that is suitable for each mon. It's a razor-thin line but The Pokemon Company put a lot of advertising money into painting that clean image. Which is why it's survived years, decades of narrative against them, even from other million dollar corporations trying to argue animal abuse.
- 3y ago
- Tiktaalik 3y agoI have such mixed feelings about this product. On one hand it's an obvious rip off and that's really lame and companies should be dissuaded from doing that. On the other hand these guys wanted to do some silly stuff that they knew Nintendo would never do (eg. what if you could shoot guns at Pokemon?) and so they made their own game to scratch that itch. That's cool. I dunno I wouldn't feel bad about it if it was like a free fair use fan game, but seems worse as a for-profit product that's competing with Nintendo.
- CaptainFever 3y agoI don't really see the issue with rip offs, as long as it's better. In fact it's a prime opportunity to innovate on an existing product. Tons of stuff we use nowadays are rip offs. Oreos, Android OS, Chief Wiggums...
- johnnyanmac 3y agoMain issue is we can never argue what's "better" 99% of the time, especially while in the heat of the conversation. And in this case Palword isn't necessarily "better" unless you utterly hate the core loop of Pokemon as a turned based monster raising battler. Which apparently many people do. But we're now arguing against game genres, not competitors. Comparing Pokemon to Palworld makes about as much sense as comparing Skyrim to Breath of the Wild. They are superfically open world adventure games with a large area to explore and basic combat, but the lore, battle loop, aesthetic, narrative feel, and a dozen other factors make them night and day. You will very likely not like BOTW at all if you go in expecting Skyrim and vice versa.
- free_bip 3y agoRealistically this game doesn't compete with anything Nintendo puts out, because they'd never in a million years make a game with a similar gameplay loop (shoot Xmon, catch/kill, put into forced labour, repeat)
- justinclift 3y agoIt looks like the Palworld developers really pissed of the customers of their previous game, Craftopia: https://store.steampowered.com/app/1307550/Craftopia/ https://store.steampowered.com/app/1307550/Craftopia/ That one was in Steam "Early Access" for several years, with people buying it at full price expecting it to be finished and released. Except the devs used the money to create Palworld instead, abandoning their Craftopia users. The recent Steam reviews for Craftopia don't paint a pretty picture at all.
- tourmalinetaco 3y agoNow this is what’s actually important. No one should care that Nintendo’s IP was “stolen” when they “stole” the IP from DQ first. However the possibility of Palworld being abandoned in the future like Craftopia is a possibility. Part of the reason I’ll be waiting out for the 1.0 release before purchasing.
- Ekaros 3y agoWith Early Access titles you should only invest when you are happy with the current state of the product even if it was not developed further. If you are not, do not buy.
- thefz 3y agoHow Nintendo is still in business is beyond me. They are adversaries to their own customers, aggressively pursue meaningless IP violations, aggressively decrease the value of their own products (Wii store anyone?) and failed to innovate in decades pushing out the same trite and formulaic games over and over again.
- johnnyanmac 3y agoProbably becasue they serve a global market beyon internet trends and have spent decades investing in their IP's, unlike many studios who are one mid release away from shutting down and having their IP hoarded by a business not interested in development. And it's clearly not a fluke. Splatoon was a huge hit out the gate despite launching on Nintendo's worst system, in 2016. Nintendo truly does house and foster some of the best designers in the industry and its a bit of a shame to chastise them indirectly due to business decisions. A factor I'm sure every creative business can agree is a constant clash.