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I like the spirit, but don't like the unintended consequence that it would create a stigma around sedans -- "oh, those are the cars for the bad drivers". We nee

I like the spirit, but don't like the unintended consequence that it would create a stigma around sedans -- "oh, those are the cars for the bad drivers". We need to do something that makes SUV drivers feel ridiculous and humiliated. Or, failing that, just make it expensive: Weight and size dependent tolls, say (using the fourth power of weight, possibly, to match road wear equations?). Or just fewer lanes in which those vehicles are allowed. "You don't get the elite lane."

HeyLaughingBoy 3y ago
> We need to do something that makes SUV drivers feel ridiculous and humiliated Oh, that couldn't possibly have any side effects.
- HeatrayEnjoyer 3y ago
  Hopefully it would have an effect. 95% of the people in these giant walls of steel have no reason to be driving them.
  - HeyLaughingBoy 3y ago
    I see. And how have you determined that?
    - dysfunction 3y ago
      Maybe not 95%, but quite a lot of truck owners when surveyed essentially never use them for towing or hauling https://www.axios.com/2023/01/23/pickup-trucks-f150-size-weight-safety https://www.axios.com/2023/01/23/pickup-trucks-f150-size-wei...
    - HeatrayEnjoyer 3y ago
      My eyeballs, for one.
  - tomjakubowski 3y ago
    they need protection from the other people also driving giant walls of steel for no other reason than...
danaris 3y ago
If we're going to try to "punish" SUV drivers for driving those vehicles, then I think we need to both recognize and do some things: 1) We need to recognize that there's a wide variety of vehicles in the SUV category. Many of them have replaced (not supplemented, replaced, because they sell better and car companies are hyperoptimizing their profits like everyone else) old standards like station wagons and minivans in manufacturer lineups. Most of them do not have the stupidly-high hoods that this article is actually about: those are primarily on pickup trucks. 2) We need to recognize that, at least for some SUVs, there are genuine, non-overcompensating use cases. Like driving on snowy, icy winter roads in the northern US and all of Canada. 3) Having recognized these things, we need to make sure there is provision in place for the people who have actual needs these vehicles are fulfilling—whether because they fall into the smaller category of people who would always need these things, or because they fall into the much larger category of people who would have bought a minivan or station wagon in the '80s and '90s, but most of those have gone away—before we start treating them all like the worst members of the category. Full disclosure: I drive a Subaru Outback. I drive it for three main reasons: it's extremely reliable, it has amazing cargo capacity (which I do use regularly), and its AWD is a godsend on the roads in upstate NY in the winter. (Is it possible to drive on these roads without it? Absolutely; I drove a Toyota Corolla for over a decade. But I am much less stressed with the AWD.) I just bought my second one, after shopping around extensively to find something that would fulfill my requirements, but get better gas mileage (which, to be fair, the Outback's is actually shockingly good for an SUV). The Outback is also basically the shape of a station wagon. It does not have an unhealthily high hood. I honestly don't know how its weight compares to other non-SUVs, but my understanding is that right now, the heaviest cars are electric cars, so using weight alone is also not a great metric. Ultimately, I think what people like you need to do is consider this question: Are you actually trying to solve a real problem with what cars are on the road? Or are you just looking for a socially-acceptable group of people to bully and be mean to? Because your proposals sound a lot like they're aimed at the latter, and very little like they'd be effective at the former.
- bejk22 3y ago
  I won't recognize (2) because it's false. Any current - and past - fwd will work just fine in Canadian snowy and icy conditions. Sure if you drive a shitty propulsion car you will get stuck everywhere but those cars are the exception. Edit: you acknowledged yourself that argument is mostly bs later in your comment...
jjav 3y ago
> I like the spirit, but don't like the unintended consequence that it would create a stigma around sedans It doesn't need to be anything punitive, just make it that more training is required. You start off with a basic license that allows for something like a 1.0 liter engine car (I know, also need to change regulations to encourage the manufacturing of small cars). Then with more experience and more training you can level up to higher power and weight categories, if you want. The training needs to become more and more difficult (not paper DMV tests), that cuts out the people who want the 9000lb truck just for status since most people won't bother. If you need that 9000lb truck enough to go through the training, have at it.
- CRConrad 3y ago
  Stepped license for heavier and more powerful vehicles is how it works for motorcycles in at least several European countries. (And of course for heavy lorries pretty much everywhere, AFAIK. But, as you say, that needs to split up into far more categories on the lower end.)
crote 3y ago
Easy: mandate a maximum size for parking spaces, and use a physical barrier to prevent double-parking. Have fun driving your oversized SUV when have to do parkour every time you get into your vehicle.
- FooBarBizBazz 3y ago
  This is honestly the constraint that I have seen push people from huge vehicles back to reasonably-sized ones. When they had to leave their habit in the Sprawl and use parking garages in even moderately-urban areas, it became unwieldy. Driving dynamics may have also played a role: They tried a smaller vehicle and realized, "hey, this drives a lot better". So there is hope.

HeyLaughingBoy 3y ago

> We need to do something that makes SUV drivers feel ridiculous and humiliated Oh, that couldn't possibly have any side effects.

HeatrayEnjoyer 3y ago
Hopefully it would have an effect. 95% of the people in these giant walls of steel have no reason to be driving them.
- HeyLaughingBoy 3y ago
  I see. And how have you determined that?
  - dysfunction 3y ago
    Maybe not 95%, but quite a lot of truck owners when surveyed essentially never use them for towing or hauling https://www.axios.com/2023/01/23/pickup-trucks-f150-size-weight-safety https://www.axios.com/2023/01/23/pickup-trucks-f150-size-wei...
  - HeatrayEnjoyer 3y ago
    My eyeballs, for one.
- tomjakubowski 3y ago
  they need protection from the other people also driving giant walls of steel for no other reason than...

danaris 3y ago

If we're going to try to "punish" SUV drivers for driving those vehicles, then I think we need to both recognize and do some things: 1) We need to recognize that there's a wide variety of vehicles in the SUV category. Many of them have replaced (not supplemented, replaced, because they sell better and car companies are hyperoptimizing their profits like everyone else) old standards like station wagons and minivans in manufacturer lineups. Most of them do not have the stupidly-high hoods that this article is actually about: those are primarily on pickup trucks. 2) We need to recognize that, at least for some SUVs, there are genuine, non-overcompensating use cases. Like driving on snowy, icy winter roads in the northern US and all of Canada. 3) Having recognized these things, we need to make sure there is provision in place for the people who have actual needs these vehicles are fulfilling—whether because they fall into the smaller category of people who would always need these things, or because they fall into the much larger category of people who would have bought a minivan or station wagon in the '80s and '90s, but most of those have gone away—before we start treating them all like the worst members of the category. Full disclosure: I drive a Subaru Outback. I drive it for three main reasons: it's extremely reliable, it has amazing cargo capacity (which I do use regularly), and its AWD is a godsend on the roads in upstate NY in the winter. (Is it possible to drive on these roads without it? Absolutely; I drove a Toyota Corolla for over a decade. But I am much less stressed with the AWD.) I just bought my second one, after shopping around extensively to find something that would fulfill my requirements, but get better gas mileage (which, to be fair, the Outback's is actually shockingly good for an SUV). The Outback is also basically the shape of a station wagon. It does not have an unhealthily high hood. I honestly don't know how its weight compares to other non-SUVs, but my understanding is that right now, the heaviest cars are electric cars, so using weight alone is also not a great metric. Ultimately, I think what people like you need to do is consider this question: Are you actually trying to solve a real problem with what cars are on the road? Or are you just looking for a socially-acceptable group of people to bully and be mean to? Because your proposals sound a lot like they're aimed at the latter, and very little like they'd be effective at the former.

bejk22 3y ago
I won't recognize (2) because it's false. Any current - and past - fwd will work just fine in Canadian snowy and icy conditions. Sure if you drive a shitty propulsion car you will get stuck everywhere but those cars are the exception. Edit: you acknowledged yourself that argument is mostly bs later in your comment...

jjav 3y ago

> I like the spirit, but don't like the unintended consequence that it would create a stigma around sedans It doesn't need to be anything punitive, just make it that more training is required. You start off with a basic license that allows for something like a 1.0 liter engine car (I know, also need to change regulations to encourage the manufacturing of small cars). Then with more experience and more training you can level up to higher power and weight categories, if you want. The training needs to become more and more difficult (not paper DMV tests), that cuts out the people who want the 9000lb truck just for status since most people won't bother. If you need that 9000lb truck enough to go through the training, have at it.

CRConrad 3y ago
Stepped license for heavier and more powerful vehicles is how it works for motorcycles in at least several European countries. (And of course for heavy lorries pretty much everywhere, AFAIK. But, as you say, that needs to split up into far more categories on the lower end.)

crote 3y ago

Easy: mandate a maximum size for parking spaces, and use a physical barrier to prevent double-parking. Have fun driving your oversized SUV when have to do parkour every time you get into your vehicle.

FooBarBizBazz 3y ago
This is honestly the constraint that I have seen push people from huge vehicles back to reasonably-sized ones. When they had to leave their habit in the Sprawl and use parking garages in even moderately-urban areas, it became unwieldy. Driving dynamics may have also played a role: They tried a smaller vehicle and realized, "hey, this drives a lot better". So there is hope.