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My proposed regulation is to introduce a hazardous vehicle license for large trucks and SUVs. Everyone is automatically granted one alongside their normal drive

My proposed regulation is to introduce a hazardous vehicle license for large trucks and SUVs. Everyone is automatically granted one alongside their normal drivers license, but if you're caught driving recklessly (weaving through traffic on the highway, aggressively tailgating, speeding through residential or urban areas), you lose it and you have to drive a normal-sized car. Perhaps there's a way to earn it back through paying a fine and taking a safe driving course. The classification of vehicles as hazardous should be based on factors known to increase pedestrian and vehicle collision fatalities to encourage safe designs.

FooBarBizBazz 3y ago
I like the spirit, but don't like the unintended consequence that it would create a stigma around sedans -- "oh, those are the cars for the bad drivers". We need to do something that makes SUV drivers feel ridiculous and humiliated. Or, failing that, just make it expensive: Weight and size dependent tolls, say (using the fourth power of weight, possibly, to match road wear equations?). Or just fewer lanes in which those vehicles are allowed. "You don't get the elite lane."
- HeyLaughingBoy 3y ago
  > We need to do something that makes SUV drivers feel ridiculous and humiliated Oh, that couldn't possibly have any side effects.
  - HeatrayEnjoyer 3y ago
    Hopefully it would have an effect. 95% of the people in these giant walls of steel have no reason to be driving them.
    - HeyLaughingBoy 3y ago
      I see. And how have you determined that?
      - dysfunction 3y ago
        Maybe not 95%, but quite a lot of truck owners when surveyed essentially never use them for towing or hauling https://www.axios.com/2023/01/23/pickup-trucks-f150-size-weight-safety https://www.axios.com/2023/01/23/pickup-trucks-f150-size-wei...
      - HeatrayEnjoyer 3y ago
        My eyeballs, for one.
    - tomjakubowski 3y ago
      they need protection from the other people also driving giant walls of steel for no other reason than...
- danaris 3y ago
  If we're going to try to "punish" SUV drivers for driving those vehicles, then I think we need to both recognize and do some things: 1) We need to recognize that there's a wide variety of vehicles in the SUV category. Many of them have replaced (not supplemented, replaced, because they sell better and car companies are hyperoptimizing their profits like everyone else) old standards like station wagons and minivans in manufacturer lineups. Most of them do not have the stupidly-high hoods that this article is actually about: those are primarily on pickup trucks. 2) We need to recognize that, at least for some SUVs, there are genuine, non-overcompensating use cases. Like driving on snowy, icy winter roads in the northern US and all of Canada. 3) Having recognized these things, we need to make sure there is provision in place for the people who have actual needs these vehicles are fulfilling—whether because they fall into the smaller category of people who would always need these things, or because they fall into the much larger category of people who would have bought a minivan or station wagon in the '80s and '90s, but most of those have gone away—before we start treating them all like the worst members of the category. Full disclosure: I drive a Subaru Outback. I drive it for three main reasons: it's extremely reliable, it has amazing cargo capacity (which I do use regularly), and its AWD is a godsend on the roads in upstate NY in the winter. (Is it possible to drive on these roads without it? Absolutely; I drove a Toyota Corolla for over a decade. But I am much less stressed with the AWD.) I just bought my second one, after shopping around extensively to find something that would fulfill my requirements, but get better gas mileage (which, to be fair, the Outback's is actually shockingly good for an SUV). The Outback is also basically the shape of a station wagon. It does not have an unhealthily high hood. I honestly don't know how its weight compares to other non-SUVs, but my understanding is that right now, the heaviest cars are electric cars, so using weight alone is also not a great metric. Ultimately, I think what people like you need to do is consider this question: Are you actually trying to solve a real problem with what cars are on the road? Or are you just looking for a socially-acceptable group of people to bully and be mean to? Because your proposals sound a lot like they're aimed at the latter, and very little like they'd be effective at the former.
  - bejk22 3y ago
    I won't recognize (2) because it's false. Any current - and past - fwd will work just fine in Canadian snowy and icy conditions. Sure if you drive a shitty propulsion car you will get stuck everywhere but those cars are the exception. Edit: you acknowledged yourself that argument is mostly bs later in your comment...
- jjav 3y ago
  > I like the spirit, but don't like the unintended consequence that it would create a stigma around sedans It doesn't need to be anything punitive, just make it that more training is required. You start off with a basic license that allows for something like a 1.0 liter engine car (I know, also need to change regulations to encourage the manufacturing of small cars). Then with more experience and more training you can level up to higher power and weight categories, if you want. The training needs to become more and more difficult (not paper DMV tests), that cuts out the people who want the 9000lb truck just for status since most people won't bother. If you need that 9000lb truck enough to go through the training, have at it.
  - CRConrad 3y ago
    Stepped license for heavier and more powerful vehicles is how it works for motorcycles in at least several European countries. (And of course for heavy lorries pretty much everywhere, AFAIK. But, as you say, that needs to split up into far more categories on the lower end.)
- crote 3y ago
  Easy: mandate a maximum size for parking spaces, and use a physical barrier to prevent double-parking. Have fun driving your oversized SUV when have to do parkour every time you get into your vehicle.
  - FooBarBizBazz 3y ago
    This is honestly the constraint that I have seen push people from huge vehicles back to reasonably-sized ones. When they had to leave their habit in the Sprawl and use parking garages in even moderately-urban areas, it became unwieldy. Driving dynamics may have also played a role: They tried a smaller vehicle and realized, "hey, this drives a lot better". So there is hope.
sschueller 3y ago
In Europe vehicles like the Humer electric can't even be driven with a regular license because of its weight (3500kg is the limit). It's basically a large truck and requires a much more involved license.
- Hamuko 3y ago
  The EV Hummer is probably impossible to get registered as anything other than a truck, but there's some trickery you can do with regular pick-up trucks. I found at least one F-150 on sale that is registered as a van and you can drive it with a regular passenger car (B) license instead of a light truck (C1) license. Shockingly, the van F-150 isn't even prohibitely expensive in tax: just 531€ per year. Although with 1.70€ to 1.90€ per litre of 95E10, you'll probably just deposit all of your savings at the pump instead.
  - consp 3y ago
    The F150 lightnings registered as a VAN can carry two passengers and about 250kg before going over it's registered and allowable weight limit. As a civilian those fines are hefty where I live, doing it as a company is extremely expensive. It's a useless vehicle except maybe for towing. If you fill all seats with some hefty adults wou'll already cross the weight limit.
BobaFloutist 3y ago
Just require a class A/B license to drive anything above...I don't know, 4000lbs? Exclude batteries from the weight if that becomes a problem for electric cars.
- gnicholas 3y ago
  Although I see why you'd want to exclude batteries from weight, I'm not sure it's totally justified. After all, F = MA regardless. A friend of mine was hit by an EV and suffered broken bones, despite being belted, and on the opposite side of the car that was hit. If it had been a lighter vehicle, her injuries wouldn't have been as bad.
  - BobaFloutist 3y ago
    My main thinking was there are a lot of things weight can (somewhat) be a shorthand for: Visibility past/around the car, visibility from within the car, carbon emissions, difficulty to drive, amount of space taken to park, deadliness of collision due directly to weight, impact on roads, and deadliness of collision due to form factor. Of those, the deadliness of collision due to weight and impact on roads are the only ones that still hold up if it's an EV. I just want to avoid a situation in which someone gets a gas engine instead of an EV of the same form factor because they would need a special license to drive the EV, which just barely gets over the weight limit. But I would also be open to this law in any form.
- punkybr3wster 3y ago
  In the F150 Lightning the batteries even on a standard range weigh as much as a Volkswagen. The standard range batteries weigh something like 1800lbs. The ER model has about 25% more battery and the Platinum weight is like 7150lbs! So maybe around 2100lbs of that is battery? So you’re still over 5000lbs on that monster without the batteries.
  - sokoloff 3y ago
    I feel confident in wagering that GP didn't intend to allow driving an F150 with a regular license.
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
TrevorJ 3y ago
The reason some of these vehicles ARE so big IS the regulations. We could look at rolling back THOSE changes first.
- punkybr3wster 3y ago
  This is the one time I always pull out my “Thanks Obama!” without being ironic.
  - HungSu 3y ago
    Could you elaborate here?
    - punkybr3wster 3y ago
      Sure. I covered it here. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39112591 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39112591
  - actionfromafar 3y ago
    Yes, clearly the US needed less sedans and more F150s.
    - punkybr3wster 3y ago
      Quite the opposite. Getting rid of small truck classifications ballooned the size of suvs and pickup trucks which is partially why we are in the mess we are in. There just aren’t small trucks anymore because of the changes. Few people need the monster suvs and pickup trucks that are on the roads these days.
- mrguyorama 3y ago
  Consumers just prefer larger vehicles here in the US, and those same preferences are also becoming the norm in other countries. You can't blame the modern Camry being gigantic on the Chicken Tax. You can't blame larger vehicles being associated with luxury on efficiency regulations.
TheCoelacanth 3y ago
They should just be outright banned. The high hood doesn't serve any practical purpose.
- mikrotikker 3y ago
  How do you even work on the engine in that thing?
  - CRConrad 3y ago
    I suppose most garages still have a hoist in the ceiling for lifting out engines. Just hoist up the mechanic with that and lower him into the engine bay.
adamredwoods 3y ago
Yes. I've always wondered if a larger vehicle hit a smaller vehicle, can they sue the larger vehicle for knowing that it could possibly inflict more damage to the smaller car? In other words, more care to avoid collisions?

FooBarBizBazz 3y ago

I like the spirit, but don't like the unintended consequence that it would create a stigma around sedans -- "oh, those are the cars for the bad drivers". We need to do something that makes SUV drivers feel ridiculous and humiliated. Or, failing that, just make it expensive: Weight and size dependent tolls, say (using the fourth power of weight, possibly, to match road wear equations?). Or just fewer lanes in which those vehicles are allowed. "You don't get the elite lane."

HeyLaughingBoy 3y ago
> We need to do something that makes SUV drivers feel ridiculous and humiliated Oh, that couldn't possibly have any side effects.
- HeatrayEnjoyer 3y ago
  Hopefully it would have an effect. 95% of the people in these giant walls of steel have no reason to be driving them.
  - HeyLaughingBoy 3y ago
    I see. And how have you determined that?
    - dysfunction 3y ago
      Maybe not 95%, but quite a lot of truck owners when surveyed essentially never use them for towing or hauling https://www.axios.com/2023/01/23/pickup-trucks-f150-size-weight-safety https://www.axios.com/2023/01/23/pickup-trucks-f150-size-wei...
    - HeatrayEnjoyer 3y ago
      My eyeballs, for one.
  - tomjakubowski 3y ago
    they need protection from the other people also driving giant walls of steel for no other reason than...
danaris 3y ago
If we're going to try to "punish" SUV drivers for driving those vehicles, then I think we need to both recognize and do some things: 1) We need to recognize that there's a wide variety of vehicles in the SUV category. Many of them have replaced (not supplemented, replaced, because they sell better and car companies are hyperoptimizing their profits like everyone else) old standards like station wagons and minivans in manufacturer lineups. Most of them do not have the stupidly-high hoods that this article is actually about: those are primarily on pickup trucks. 2) We need to recognize that, at least for some SUVs, there are genuine, non-overcompensating use cases. Like driving on snowy, icy winter roads in the northern US and all of Canada. 3) Having recognized these things, we need to make sure there is provision in place for the people who have actual needs these vehicles are fulfilling—whether because they fall into the smaller category of people who would always need these things, or because they fall into the much larger category of people who would have bought a minivan or station wagon in the '80s and '90s, but most of those have gone away—before we start treating them all like the worst members of the category. Full disclosure: I drive a Subaru Outback. I drive it for three main reasons: it's extremely reliable, it has amazing cargo capacity (which I do use regularly), and its AWD is a godsend on the roads in upstate NY in the winter. (Is it possible to drive on these roads without it? Absolutely; I drove a Toyota Corolla for over a decade. But I am much less stressed with the AWD.) I just bought my second one, after shopping around extensively to find something that would fulfill my requirements, but get better gas mileage (which, to be fair, the Outback's is actually shockingly good for an SUV). The Outback is also basically the shape of a station wagon. It does not have an unhealthily high hood. I honestly don't know how its weight compares to other non-SUVs, but my understanding is that right now, the heaviest cars are electric cars, so using weight alone is also not a great metric. Ultimately, I think what people like you need to do is consider this question: Are you actually trying to solve a real problem with what cars are on the road? Or are you just looking for a socially-acceptable group of people to bully and be mean to? Because your proposals sound a lot like they're aimed at the latter, and very little like they'd be effective at the former.
- bejk22 3y ago
  I won't recognize (2) because it's false. Any current - and past - fwd will work just fine in Canadian snowy and icy conditions. Sure if you drive a shitty propulsion car you will get stuck everywhere but those cars are the exception. Edit: you acknowledged yourself that argument is mostly bs later in your comment...
jjav 3y ago
> I like the spirit, but don't like the unintended consequence that it would create a stigma around sedans It doesn't need to be anything punitive, just make it that more training is required. You start off with a basic license that allows for something like a 1.0 liter engine car (I know, also need to change regulations to encourage the manufacturing of small cars). Then with more experience and more training you can level up to higher power and weight categories, if you want. The training needs to become more and more difficult (not paper DMV tests), that cuts out the people who want the 9000lb truck just for status since most people won't bother. If you need that 9000lb truck enough to go through the training, have at it.
- CRConrad 3y ago
  Stepped license for heavier and more powerful vehicles is how it works for motorcycles in at least several European countries. (And of course for heavy lorries pretty much everywhere, AFAIK. But, as you say, that needs to split up into far more categories on the lower end.)
crote 3y ago
Easy: mandate a maximum size for parking spaces, and use a physical barrier to prevent double-parking. Have fun driving your oversized SUV when have to do parkour every time you get into your vehicle.
- FooBarBizBazz 3y ago
  This is honestly the constraint that I have seen push people from huge vehicles back to reasonably-sized ones. When they had to leave their habit in the Sprawl and use parking garages in even moderately-urban areas, it became unwieldy. Driving dynamics may have also played a role: They tried a smaller vehicle and realized, "hey, this drives a lot better". So there is hope.

sschueller 3y ago

In Europe vehicles like the Humer electric can't even be driven with a regular license because of its weight (3500kg is the limit). It's basically a large truck and requires a much more involved license.

Hamuko 3y ago
The EV Hummer is probably impossible to get registered as anything other than a truck, but there's some trickery you can do with regular pick-up trucks. I found at least one F-150 on sale that is registered as a van and you can drive it with a regular passenger car (B) license instead of a light truck (C1) license. Shockingly, the van F-150 isn't even prohibitely expensive in tax: just 531€ per year. Although with 1.70€ to 1.90€ per litre of 95E10, you'll probably just deposit all of your savings at the pump instead.
- consp 3y ago
  The F150 lightnings registered as a VAN can carry two passengers and about 250kg before going over it's registered and allowable weight limit. As a civilian those fines are hefty where I live, doing it as a company is extremely expensive. It's a useless vehicle except maybe for towing. If you fill all seats with some hefty adults wou'll already cross the weight limit.

BobaFloutist 3y ago

Just require a class A/B license to drive anything above...I don't know, 4000lbs? Exclude batteries from the weight if that becomes a problem for electric cars.

gnicholas 3y ago
Although I see why you'd want to exclude batteries from weight, I'm not sure it's totally justified. After all, F = MA regardless. A friend of mine was hit by an EV and suffered broken bones, despite being belted, and on the opposite side of the car that was hit. If it had been a lighter vehicle, her injuries wouldn't have been as bad.
- BobaFloutist 3y ago
  My main thinking was there are a lot of things weight can (somewhat) be a shorthand for: Visibility past/around the car, visibility from within the car, carbon emissions, difficulty to drive, amount of space taken to park, deadliness of collision due directly to weight, impact on roads, and deadliness of collision due to form factor. Of those, the deadliness of collision due to weight and impact on roads are the only ones that still hold up if it's an EV. I just want to avoid a situation in which someone gets a gas engine instead of an EV of the same form factor because they would need a special license to drive the EV, which just barely gets over the weight limit. But I would also be open to this law in any form.
punkybr3wster 3y ago
In the F150 Lightning the batteries even on a standard range weigh as much as a Volkswagen. The standard range batteries weigh something like 1800lbs. The ER model has about 25% more battery and the Platinum weight is like 7150lbs! So maybe around 2100lbs of that is battery? So you’re still over 5000lbs on that monster without the batteries.
- sokoloff 3y ago
  I feel confident in wagering that GP didn't intend to allow driving an F150 with a regular license.

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]

TrevorJ 3y ago

The reason some of these vehicles ARE so big IS the regulations. We could look at rolling back THOSE changes first.

punkybr3wster 3y ago
This is the one time I always pull out my “Thanks Obama!” without being ironic.
- HungSu 3y ago
  Could you elaborate here?
  - punkybr3wster 3y ago
    Sure. I covered it here. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39112591 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39112591
- actionfromafar 3y ago
  Yes, clearly the US needed less sedans and more F150s.
  - punkybr3wster 3y ago
    Quite the opposite. Getting rid of small truck classifications ballooned the size of suvs and pickup trucks which is partially why we are in the mess we are in. There just aren’t small trucks anymore because of the changes. Few people need the monster suvs and pickup trucks that are on the roads these days.
mrguyorama 3y ago
Consumers just prefer larger vehicles here in the US, and those same preferences are also becoming the norm in other countries. You can't blame the modern Camry being gigantic on the Chicken Tax. You can't blame larger vehicles being associated with luxury on efficiency regulations.

TheCoelacanth 3y ago

They should just be outright banned. The high hood doesn't serve any practical purpose.

mikrotikker 3y ago
How do you even work on the engine in that thing?
- CRConrad 3y ago
  I suppose most garages still have a hoist in the ceiling for lifting out engines. Just hoist up the mechanic with that and lower him into the engine bay.

adamredwoods 3y ago

Yes. I've always wondered if a larger vehicle hit a smaller vehicle, can they sue the larger vehicle for knowing that it could possibly inflict more damage to the smaller car? In other words, more care to avoid collisions?