6 ms·

I wish they deliver good keyboard as well, like Thinkpads X201 or similar have. I am happy owner of modded X201 with updated screen, motherboard, and so on. It'

I wish they deliver good keyboard as well, like Thinkpads X201 or similar have. I am happy owner of modded X201 with updated screen, motherboard, and so on. It's not on a cheap side, but I'm happy to pay that price _only_ for the keyboard option. It's so cool. Folks back then knew what was important.

pachico 3y ago
I personally never experienced a keyboard as comfortable as my fw13. I am coming from XPS ones and never tried ThinkPads, thought.
- Hamuko 3y ago
  The LTT video says that the 16-inch Framework has a much worse keyboard than the 13-inch one.
  - nrp 3y ago
    The physical key mechanism is the same as on the Framework Laptop 13 (the same tooling too). The LTT video noted that they found flex in the mid plate that the keyboard rests on, which we are investigating.
  - happymellon 3y ago
    Do you know what is the travel on the 13 and 16 Framework keyboards?
    - nrp 3y ago
      1.5mm key travel.
redeeman 3y ago
[flagged]
- yjftsjthsd-h 3y ago
  You can just enable the firmware option to swap fn/ctrl. Or use software to make caps a ctrl, which is better anyways.
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
juujian 3y ago
I hope with the new modular keyboard tray we will get some decent option. I would only buy it if there was one with a track point tbh, third party or otherwise.
- jwells89 3y ago
  I’ve been hopeful for more keyboard options on Frameworks too. Ideally I’d like HHKB layout with trackpoint and accompanying trackpad module with three buttons at the top, but would be happy with only HHKB layout or only trackpoint.
- genman 3y ago
  Certainly the colorful led backlight must have been the highest priority.
- gary_0 3y ago
  I dream of having a laptop with a standard tenkeyless layout. If I end up buying a Framework at some point I might build my own TKL keyboard, or pay handsomely to have one custom-built, such is my burning desire to keep my existing muscle-memory.
  - paulmd 3y ago
    Yeah I’m not a fan of the numpad on laptops. If im doing serious data entry I’ll get out a numpad (Keychron C1) or a full keyboard. And it actively reduces the space for the rest of the KB layout, speakers, etc. But as you say, the cool part about framework is that everyone can customize it to their own tastes.
whalesalad 3y ago
How long does your battery last?
leetharris 3y ago
I have not used a Windows laptop outside of Razer and maybe Surface in many years. How do those Thinkpad keyboards compare to new Macbook Pro keyboards? I've always found the Macbook Pro keyboards to be "fine," but I'm curious if I am actually missing out on a better experience.
- rollcat 3y ago
  > I've always found the Macbook Pro keyboards to be "fine," [...] Have you tried the previous, "butterfly" generation? It should've been criminal to ship that.
  - patrec 3y ago
    Personally, I think the butterfly keyboard is great. Assuming, of course, that you got one that does not suffer mechanical reliability issues. This opinion is hardly universal but seems to be shared by quite a few good typists. I'm typing this on a fancy mechanical keyboard, because I care quite a bit about keyboard quality (and consequently hate most laptop keyboards). So it's not that I just don't know better.
  - Cu3PO42 3y ago
    I have and I think it's fine. The newer ones are better, but I never understood the enormous dislike for it. IMO the pre-butterfly keyboard is still better than even the current iteration.
- RomanPushkin 3y ago
  > Macbook Pro keyboards to be "fine," but I'm curious if I am actually missing out on a better experience Yes, you are missing a better experience. You might try out Bluetooth X201-like keyboards built by enthusiasts from China, if you can buy them. I tried to contact with no luck though. But it can be a good DYI project, if you have one for sale, let me know. Here is the link https://www.taobao.com/list/item/615448425938.htm https://www.taobao.com/list/item/615448425938.htm They 3D-print the body, and use keyboards from Thinkpad laptops.
- voytec 3y ago
binkHN 3y ago
> ...modded X201 with updated ... motherboard... How far are you getting with these updates? I agree the keyboards of old are legendary, but at some point your productivity is negatively affected by legacy CPUs and related.
- tempest_ 3y ago
  It really depends on how you develop. For some people laptops never have enough power and are essentially a thin client to something else.
- LeifCarrotson 3y ago
  The X201 mods are pretty comprehensive, the 51NB team and others like XY Tech have commissioned entire replacement motherboards that carry i7-8550u or i7-10710u processors. See [1]. And the old 35W processors in some of these laptops will still deliver solid performance. The new ones will turbo higher, but throttle quicker. You get higher default clock speed and better thermals with the older processors. Of course memory bandwidth and peripheral connectivity are better with newer processors, but they're perfectly usable. If what you want to do to be productive is edit text and maybe render HTML and browse files, and your OS/IDE/browser does not place unnecessary demands on your computer, then an X201, especially modded, cannot be the blame for your lack of productivity. https://www.xyte.ch/ https://www.xyte.ch/
- RomanPushkin 3y ago
  > How far are you getting with these updates? I can run Slack native app and the fan doesn't kick in! Kidding, but I have Slack running, and containers, and IDEs. Everything. My CPU is pretty decent, 64GB RAM, 2 SSDs, 1TB each. This is modded X201 from enthusiasts from China. These laptops are somewhat niche, but you can buy them. You will run all the software you need, and even more. The only downside is battery life, I hope we'll have new types of batteries some time soon, so it won't bother me too much.
dartharva 3y ago
Does a current-gen laptop featuring an X201-like keyboard exist? Has such a thing even existed in the last five years?
- binkHN 3y ago
  Lenovo continues to reduce key travel in favor of the more popular thin and light crowd.
  - wazoox 3y ago
    case in point : my 2020 Lenovo Ideapad keyboard looks like this: https://demo.intellique.org/nextcloud/index.php/s/6jJ3r4brrjxco9r https://demo.intellique.org/nextcloud/index.php/s/6jJ3r4brrj...
- RomanPushkin 3y ago
  Yes, through enthusiasts from China. They make their own motherboards and install modern components. There is no warranty though, and you need to wire them funds, there is also no returns. It worked for me though. I have 64GB ram, 2 SSDs 1TB each. It's mostly silent after I configured things in BIOS. The battery life still sucks.
- Liskni_si 3y ago
  Apart from the 51nb stuff from China (https://www.xyte.ch/mods/x210-x2100/ https://www.xyte.ch/mods/x210-x2100/ and the like), the ThinkPad 25 is the closest official thing, but it's over 6 years old now (released in October 2017, but mine's still going strong and I haven't even replaced the batteries yet).
silon42 3y ago
Yeah... I'd want a full height mechanical keyboard myself. The current offering is missing International English ISO - Linux variant for me.
dinkleberg 3y ago
It is unlikely, but I really hope they get an ortholinear keyboard option at some point. There is this thread[1] which has gotten my hopes up. [1] https://community.frame.work/t/ortholinear-keyboard-option/3321/23 https://community.frame.work/t/ortholinear-keyboard-option/3...
- rollcat 3y ago
  Hopefully not just a simple square grid, but something designed for ergonomics. You don't need to invent a new layout, there's plenty of pretty good designs you can copy, like Corne or Atreus. But at this point I'd take anything - even a narrower space bar (so that you can use your thumbs for modifiers without contorting them) would be a huge improvement. Even just looking at staggered keyboards hurts my hands.
  - tiltowait 3y ago
    There's a surprisingly large cohort that believes a matrix layout is ergonomic—as in, "I have an ergonomic keyboard". From my personal use, it's a wash at best—some keys are easier to reach, and others are harder. The worst part is the layout promotes ulnar deviation even more than does a standard keyboard, and ulnar deviation is a major contributor to RSI. (A split matrix-style keyboard would negate the ulnar deviation concerns.) The Atreus layout, while not a personal favorite (way too much chording, which I found unpleasant and uncomfortable), would seem to be pretty ideal on a laptop, though it does take up a good chunk of space.
    - MetaWhirledPeas 3y ago
      > From my personal use, it's a wash at best—some keys are easier to reach, and others are harder I agree. > the layout promotes ulnar deviation even more than does a standard keyboard Hard disagree. You may choose to hold your wrists in such a manner that this is true, but that's on you. I'm a touch typist, and I switched to ortho partly because it makes a lot more sense for touch typing. Touch typing is taught in columns, and when those columns are slanted like this \ there really is no justification. So ortho lets me scratch that itch to fix the keyboard.
ijhuygft776 3y ago
I never used a laptop keyboard that I liked (I currently have a thinkpad)... probably because I'm used to these old style IBM keyboards with numeric keypad https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/71UJ8OXnZjL._AC_SL1500_.jpg https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/71UJ8OXnZjL._AC_SL1500_....
- ijhuygft776 3y ago
  to me, it would make a lot more sense to replace the lines of numbers on top of the keyboard with the numeric keypad (instead of getting rid of it)... it is so much easier to type numbers with it....
- m463 3y ago
  they used to be so much better. I typed on a friend's ancient powerbook and the keyboard made a lasting impression on me. I found the sculpted keys to be smooth and comfortable. This was when flat keys were first coming out. I think this one: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/31/WallstreetII.jpg https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/31/Wallstre...
christkv 3y ago
Looks like the keyboard was decent once you put some thermal pads under the keyboard to stiffen it up lol. I like the fact that you can easily mod things yourself though.
vehemenz 3y ago
It would never happen, but I'd like to have a no-keyboard option. I never use my laptop keyboard because I have an HHKB, rendering it unnecessary. Instead of a keyboard, I'd like a flat surface where I can rest my HHKB and maybe an L-shaped connector to plug in the USB-C.
- tadbit 3y ago
  Sounds like you want Framework to release a mini pc
  - vehemenz 3y ago
    I like the form factor of a laptop though, plus the touchpad. The only superfluous part is the built-in keyboard. I already have a keyboard (an HHKB).
- m463 3y ago
  I wish that portable form factor like the dolch pc would come back. monitor part of the case with a fold out detachable keyboard. this is a terrible example of what I mean: http://www.computinghistory.org.uk/userdata/images/large/PRODPIC-1176.jpg http://www.computinghistory.org.uk/userdata/images/large/PRO... but imagine something like that with a more modern take. EDIT: ok here it is: http://portexa.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/04/FlexPAC-III-23-Open.jpg http://portexa.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/04/FlexPAC-III-23... look up "flexpac iii"
m463 3y ago
I would love something like that. Something with curved keys that fit the contour of your finger instead of the "everybody-copy-apple" flat key nonsense. Curved keys are more comfortable, putting even pressure on your finger instead of high pressure in one place. They also give tactile feedback to help center your finger on each key, making typing more accurate and faster.

pachico 3y ago

I personally never experienced a keyboard as comfortable as my fw13. I am coming from XPS ones and never tried ThinkPads, thought.

Hamuko 3y ago
The LTT video says that the 16-inch Framework has a much worse keyboard than the 13-inch one.
- nrp 3y ago
  The physical key mechanism is the same as on the Framework Laptop 13 (the same tooling too). The LTT video noted that they found flex in the mid plate that the keyboard rests on, which we are investigating.
- happymellon 3y ago
  Do you know what is the travel on the 13 and 16 Framework keyboards?
  - nrp 3y ago
    1.5mm key travel.

redeeman 3y ago

[flagged]

yjftsjthsd-h 3y ago
You can just enable the firmware option to swap fn/ctrl. Or use software to make caps a ctrl, which is better anyways.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]

juujian 3y ago

I hope with the new modular keyboard tray we will get some decent option. I would only buy it if there was one with a track point tbh, third party or otherwise.

jwells89 3y ago
I’ve been hopeful for more keyboard options on Frameworks too. Ideally I’d like HHKB layout with trackpoint and accompanying trackpad module with three buttons at the top, but would be happy with only HHKB layout or only trackpoint.
genman 3y ago
Certainly the colorful led backlight must have been the highest priority.
gary_0 3y ago
I dream of having a laptop with a standard tenkeyless layout. If I end up buying a Framework at some point I might build my own TKL keyboard, or pay handsomely to have one custom-built, such is my burning desire to keep my existing muscle-memory.
- paulmd 3y ago
  Yeah I’m not a fan of the numpad on laptops. If im doing serious data entry I’ll get out a numpad (Keychron C1) or a full keyboard. And it actively reduces the space for the rest of the KB layout, speakers, etc. But as you say, the cool part about framework is that everyone can customize it to their own tastes.

whalesalad 3y ago

How long does your battery last?

leetharris 3y ago

I have not used a Windows laptop outside of Razer and maybe Surface in many years. How do those Thinkpad keyboards compare to new Macbook Pro keyboards? I've always found the Macbook Pro keyboards to be "fine," but I'm curious if I am actually missing out on a better experience.

rollcat 3y ago
> I've always found the Macbook Pro keyboards to be "fine," [...] Have you tried the previous, "butterfly" generation? It should've been criminal to ship that.
- patrec 3y ago
  Personally, I think the butterfly keyboard is great. Assuming, of course, that you got one that does not suffer mechanical reliability issues. This opinion is hardly universal but seems to be shared by quite a few good typists. I'm typing this on a fancy mechanical keyboard, because I care quite a bit about keyboard quality (and consequently hate most laptop keyboards). So it's not that I just don't know better.
- Cu3PO42 3y ago
  I have and I think it's fine. The newer ones are better, but I never understood the enormous dislike for it. IMO the pre-butterfly keyboard is still better than even the current iteration.
RomanPushkin 3y ago
> Macbook Pro keyboards to be "fine," but I'm curious if I am actually missing out on a better experience Yes, you are missing a better experience. You might try out Bluetooth X201-like keyboards built by enthusiasts from China, if you can buy them. I tried to contact with no luck though. But it can be a good DYI project, if you have one for sale, let me know. Here is the link https://www.taobao.com/list/item/615448425938.htm https://www.taobao.com/list/item/615448425938.htm They 3D-print the body, and use keyboards from Thinkpad laptops.
voytec 3y ago

binkHN 3y ago

> ...modded X201 with updated ... motherboard... How far are you getting with these updates? I agree the keyboards of old are legendary, but at some point your productivity is negatively affected by legacy CPUs and related.

tempest_ 3y ago
It really depends on how you develop. For some people laptops never have enough power and are essentially a thin client to something else.
LeifCarrotson 3y ago
The X201 mods are pretty comprehensive, the 51NB team and others like XY Tech have commissioned entire replacement motherboards that carry i7-8550u or i7-10710u processors. See [1]. And the old 35W processors in some of these laptops will still deliver solid performance. The new ones will turbo higher, but throttle quicker. You get higher default clock speed and better thermals with the older processors. Of course memory bandwidth and peripheral connectivity are better with newer processors, but they're perfectly usable. If what you want to do to be productive is edit text and maybe render HTML and browse files, and your OS/IDE/browser does not place unnecessary demands on your computer, then an X201, especially modded, cannot be the blame for your lack of productivity. https://www.xyte.ch/ https://www.xyte.ch/
RomanPushkin 3y ago
> How far are you getting with these updates? I can run Slack native app and the fan doesn't kick in! Kidding, but I have Slack running, and containers, and IDEs. Everything. My CPU is pretty decent, 64GB RAM, 2 SSDs, 1TB each. This is modded X201 from enthusiasts from China. These laptops are somewhat niche, but you can buy them. You will run all the software you need, and even more. The only downside is battery life, I hope we'll have new types of batteries some time soon, so it won't bother me too much.

dartharva 3y ago

Does a current-gen laptop featuring an X201-like keyboard exist? Has such a thing even existed in the last five years?

binkHN 3y ago
Lenovo continues to reduce key travel in favor of the more popular thin and light crowd.
- wazoox 3y ago
  case in point : my 2020 Lenovo Ideapad keyboard looks like this: https://demo.intellique.org/nextcloud/index.php/s/6jJ3r4brrjxco9r https://demo.intellique.org/nextcloud/index.php/s/6jJ3r4brrj...
RomanPushkin 3y ago
Yes, through enthusiasts from China. They make their own motherboards and install modern components. There is no warranty though, and you need to wire them funds, there is also no returns. It worked for me though. I have 64GB ram, 2 SSDs 1TB each. It's mostly silent after I configured things in BIOS. The battery life still sucks.
Liskni_si 3y ago
Apart from the 51nb stuff from China (https://www.xyte.ch/mods/x210-x2100/ https://www.xyte.ch/mods/x210-x2100/ and the like), the ThinkPad 25 is the closest official thing, but it's over 6 years old now (released in October 2017, but mine's still going strong and I haven't even replaced the batteries yet).

silon42 3y ago

Yeah... I'd want a full height mechanical keyboard myself. The current offering is missing International English ISO - Linux variant for me.

dinkleberg 3y ago

It is unlikely, but I really hope they get an ortholinear keyboard option at some point. There is this thread[1] which has gotten my hopes up. [1] https://community.frame.work/t/ortholinear-keyboard-option/3321/23 https://community.frame.work/t/ortholinear-keyboard-option/3...

rollcat 3y ago
Hopefully not just a simple square grid, but something designed for ergonomics. You don't need to invent a new layout, there's plenty of pretty good designs you can copy, like Corne or Atreus. But at this point I'd take anything - even a narrower space bar (so that you can use your thumbs for modifiers without contorting them) would be a huge improvement. Even just looking at staggered keyboards hurts my hands.
- tiltowait 3y ago
  There's a surprisingly large cohort that believes a matrix layout is ergonomic—as in, "I have an ergonomic keyboard". From my personal use, it's a wash at best—some keys are easier to reach, and others are harder. The worst part is the layout promotes ulnar deviation even more than does a standard keyboard, and ulnar deviation is a major contributor to RSI. (A split matrix-style keyboard would negate the ulnar deviation concerns.) The Atreus layout, while not a personal favorite (way too much chording, which I found unpleasant and uncomfortable), would seem to be pretty ideal on a laptop, though it does take up a good chunk of space.
  - MetaWhirledPeas 3y ago
    > From my personal use, it's a wash at best—some keys are easier to reach, and others are harder I agree. > the layout promotes ulnar deviation even more than does a standard keyboard Hard disagree. You may choose to hold your wrists in such a manner that this is true, but that's on you. I'm a touch typist, and I switched to ortho partly because it makes a lot more sense for touch typing. Touch typing is taught in columns, and when those columns are slanted like this \ there really is no justification. So ortho lets me scratch that itch to fix the keyboard.

ijhuygft776 3y ago

I never used a laptop keyboard that I liked (I currently have a thinkpad)... probably because I'm used to these old style IBM keyboards with numeric keypad https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/71UJ8OXnZjL._AC_SL1500_.jpg https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/71UJ8OXnZjL._AC_SL1500_....

ijhuygft776 3y ago
to me, it would make a lot more sense to replace the lines of numbers on top of the keyboard with the numeric keypad (instead of getting rid of it)... it is so much easier to type numbers with it....
m463 3y ago
they used to be so much better. I typed on a friend's ancient powerbook and the keyboard made a lasting impression on me. I found the sculpted keys to be smooth and comfortable. This was when flat keys were first coming out. I think this one: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/31/WallstreetII.jpg https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/31/Wallstre...

christkv 3y ago

Looks like the keyboard was decent once you put some thermal pads under the keyboard to stiffen it up lol. I like the fact that you can easily mod things yourself though.

vehemenz 3y ago

It would never happen, but I'd like to have a no-keyboard option. I never use my laptop keyboard because I have an HHKB, rendering it unnecessary. Instead of a keyboard, I'd like a flat surface where I can rest my HHKB and maybe an L-shaped connector to plug in the USB-C.

tadbit 3y ago
Sounds like you want Framework to release a mini pc
- vehemenz 3y ago
  I like the form factor of a laptop though, plus the touchpad. The only superfluous part is the built-in keyboard. I already have a keyboard (an HHKB).
m463 3y ago
I wish that portable form factor like the dolch pc would come back. monitor part of the case with a fold out detachable keyboard. this is a terrible example of what I mean: http://www.computinghistory.org.uk/userdata/images/large/PRODPIC-1176.jpg http://www.computinghistory.org.uk/userdata/images/large/PRO... but imagine something like that with a more modern take. EDIT: ok here it is: http://portexa.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/04/FlexPAC-III-23-Open.jpg http://portexa.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/04/FlexPAC-III-23... look up "flexpac iii"

m463 3y ago

I would love something like that. Something with curved keys that fit the contour of your finger instead of the "everybody-copy-apple" flat key nonsense. Curved keys are more comfortable, putting even pressure on your finger instead of high pressure in one place. They also give tactile feedback to help center your finger on each key, making typing more accurate and faster.