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The Hawai’i Seaglider Initiative: A new approach to travel between the islands
- hackernewds 3y agoall this "Hawaii environment is fragile fly with us" hullabaloo to fly a 2 seater plane?
- ako 3y agoLooks like there are other models that vary more than 2: https://www.regentcraft.com/ https://www.regentcraft.com/
- mkl 3y ago12-seater, zero-emission: https://www.hawaiiseaglider.org/what-is-a-seaglider https://www.hawaiiseaglider.org/what-is-a-seaglider
- beaeglebeached 3y agoWonder if power generation in emissionless on the islands. I think sailboat handily beats this thing environmentally.
- gregman1 3y agoWow, this technology is quite fascinating! It's possible that they might consider updating it to a more established version with greater capacity, which has been known and is operating since 1961. https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%9C%D0%B5%D1%82%D0%B5%D0%BE%D1%80_(%D1%82%D0%B5%D0%BF%D0%BB%D0%BE%D1%85%D0%BE%D0%B4) https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%9C%D0%B5%D1%82%D0%B5%D0%BE...
- Zanni 3y agoYou've linked to a hydrofoil boat, which is quite different. The Seaglider is much faster, up to 180 mph (vs. the hydrofoils 77 kph / 48 mph). https://beatofhawaii.com/hawaii-seaglider-flies-forward-with-major-partners-and-state-support/ https://beatofhawaii.com/hawaii-seaglider-flies-forward-with...
- margalabargala 3y agoOP may have been thinking of the Russian ekranoplans, which are similar nautical ground effect vehicles capable of 400± mph.
- zh3 3y agoPerhaps you meant the "Caspian Sea Monster" [0] or similiar Ekranoplans? [1] [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caspian_Sea_Monster https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caspian_Sea_Monster [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ground-effect_vehicle https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ground-effect_vehicle
- peterdsharpe 3y agoThis is rule-breaking on HN; argue in good faith.
- greesil 3y agoIs this like an Ekranoplane EV?
- andrewflnr 3y agoLooks like it to me, too.
- petre 3y agoYes, this is the craft, the Regent Viceroy sea glider: 12+2 crew, 3500 lbs payload, up to 156 nm range, 156 kt. It can fly an hour, might be okay for island hopping. https://www.regentcraft.com/seagliders/viceroy https://www.regentcraft.com/seagliders/viceroy
- Animats 3y agoWhen I go to the web sites of some of their "customers", there's no mention of this thing. Regent's own site says "Seagliders have 160 nautical mile range with existing battery technology (upgradeable to over 400 nautical mile range with next generation battery technology) and will enter service by 2025. Full-scale prototypes will begin human flight trials by 2024. Specifications and configuration are subject to change, images may not reflect the final vehicle design." I wonder what new battery technology they plan to use that they think will provide a 250% range increase. The 180mph top speed is impressive, but you're not going to be able to operate at that speed around other sea traffic. You need just the right situation for this thing - docks not too far apart, but far enough apart that an ordinary ferry is too slow. An area with so little sea traffic that it can go full speed. Long Beach to Catalina Island is out; you can't zip these things across a major shipping lane full of container ships. Wall Street to the Hamptons has the same problem. Not sure about inter-island in Hawaii. Probably more useful in areas with lots of small populated islands. East Asia, maybe. This thing is certainly buildable, but it seems to be more in the private jet category than a major transportation system.
- petre 3y agoI know it's possibly vapour but I wish they build the craft and find a market for it to make it commercially viable. I was thinking Hawaii, Canary Islands, Azores, Balearic Islands, crossing between Sardinia and Corsica and from around Messina Sicily to mainland Italy, Japan, South Korea (eg. Wando-Jeju), NZ (eg. Wellington area to Waikawa or Picton). You don't need shipping port or ferry infrastructure for it, a smaller port or a marina with good acces to electricity might be enough. For the rest of SE Asia it might be too expensive, but it might be useful in the Philippines and Indonesia.
- ugh123 3y agoThis is where EVTOLs should have more prevalence in testing low-altitude runs, like 10s of feet, not 100s, where safety can be increased. Also regulation might be different for very low altitude flights.
- yieldcrv 3y ago> A preliminary survey of Hawai‘i residents showed they are concerned that seagliders will only be affordable to the affluent and may result in an increased tax burden on Hawai‘i’s residents. The survey also showed that residents are concerned that seagliders may produce some form of ecological damage either near shore or in the areas surrounding the harbors. Others expressed their concern about how seagliders can potentially impact communities through an increase in visitors. All of these concerns are important to the Hawai‘i Seaglider Initiative, and will be addressed as seagliders move forward in Hawai‘i. We believe seagliders should bring the community together, not divide us. The goal of the Hawai‘i Seaglider Initiative is to move forward with an open heart and mind as a unified community. so all the concerns are accurate and nothing will be done to create a different reality. understandable. cant wait to visit!
- ako 3y agoSeems like the usual “all change is bad” reaction you see around most initiatives. All the alternatives have similar downsides or worse.
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- hawaiianbrah 3y agopricing was projected to be pretty cheap compared with interisland flights today
- rtpg 3y agoWasn't there a ferry transportation service that got canned due to environmental concerns? Seems hard to imagine planes doing better on that front.
- thatfunkymunki 3y agoIt was canned because of lobbying by the local airlines and car rental joints which were way more established.
- anewhnaccount2 3y agoIt's electric, whereas most boats still use pretty dirty fuel sources, however the damage possibilities from direct collision with wildlife are real.
- m-ee 3y agoWrong kind of environmental concerns from what locals have told me. The issues were more about increased traffic from Oahu to the less populated islands and people taking things that have been made more or less extinct on Oahu like opihi or the lava rocks used for cooking kalua pig.
- hawaiianbrah 3y agoI thought the problem with the ferry was not doing the underwater environmental review
- taylorfinley 3y agoThe GP's post tracks with my recollection from the time. On the return leg of one of the very first trips to Maui three pickup trucks were found with beds full of lava rock, allegedly collected without permission or permits. This was the inciting incident that seemed to confirm the neighbor islands' residents fears that the Superferry would lead to plundering of cultural resources en masse (not to mention making existing overcrowding worse). On a subsequent trip to kauai a large number of protestors (or protectors I suppose, depending on your view) paddled out on surfboards and blocked the ferry's path at Nawiliwili. Here's a contemporaneous report about the lava rocks from an independent journalist: http://www.islandbreath.org/2007Year/09-access&transport/0709-38HSFcontinuing_story.html http://www.islandbreath.org/2007Year/09-access&transport/070... The rocks weren't the direct cause of the Superferry shutting down, but in my recollection they sure charted the course that way: people who might have seemed to some like they were just fighting change to fight change suddenly had irrefutable evidence to confirm their fears. There were of course other legal challenges that actually led to the shutdown, bankruptcy, and subsequent abandonment of the vessels. But at the time, on the neighbor islands, it sure crystalized the opposition.
- laborcontract 3y agoThis is so cool, I hope they try to coral a diverse collection of local stakeholders because these things in hawaii tend to die by the hand of protestors who are a very vocal minority.
- freitasm 3y agoSomething also planned for New Zealand too: https://www.oceanflyer.co.nz/ https://www.oceanflyer.co.nz/
- mkl 3y agoNeat! I couldn't see where they intend to run it (though it may be hidden in an article). They give a 300km range, which is almost exactly Christchurch–Wellington, so I wonder if that's possible.
- slyall 3y agoA bit more information here: https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/128397643/transport-revolution-touted-electric-seagliders-to-connect-nz-cities-by-2025 https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/128397643/transport-revolut... "Ocean Flyer’s seagliders would be able to fly people between Wellington and Lyttelton in an hour for $60 a seat, or between Auckland’s Viaduct Harbour and Whangarei in 30 minutes for $30, Aslam forecast." Feels pretty speculative
- phire 3y agoChristchurch to Wellington is a bit of a stretch for the range. It's too far to use the Harbour infrastructure at either end. You would have to build a pier on the southern side of Wellington (say Island Bay) and then use New Brighton pier. That works out to about 295 km. With only 300km range, it's hard to find good routes in NZ.
- mkl 3y agoAccording to https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/128397643/transport-revolution-touted-electric-seagliders-to-connect-nz-cities-by-2025 https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/128397643/transport-revolut... they do intend to do Christchurch–Wellington. Possibly only with the bigger 100-seater ones they've ordered though.
- phire 3y agoWell, they only need slightly more range. 300km isn't really enough, but 350km is plenty. From what I can tell, the design is still in development. The 300km number is probably more of a conservative estimate than an actual range. The Ocean Flyer team might be gambling on the real-world range being long enough for the Christchurch-Wellington route.
- Animats 3y agoIt's an ekranoplan. The USSR made several. The actual vehicle is from a company called Regent.[1] They do have a quarter-scale prototype, and a video. This web site is from some group trying to get funding for a service. The current Regent ekranoplan, not yet shipping, is a 12 passenger model. That seems small for an inter-island ferry. It would be faster than a ferry, but since the existing inter-island ferry routes only run about an hour, more speed may not be worth the trouble. Probably just a tourist attraction. [1] https://archive.is/CkcJI https://archive.is/CkcJI
- bink 3y agoWhich inter-island ferry are you referring to? Hawaii doesn't have them.
- noduerme 3y agoI'm not sure where you're getting this. There are no inter-island ferries anymore in Hawaii, except for the short tourist hops from Maui to Lanai and Molokai. Much longer trips between the big island, Maui and Oahu were possible for a couple years up until 2009 on the Superferry, but it closed after years of legal wrangling over environmental issues.
- pinot 3y agoBig Island never got superferry. Back in the 70s there was Seaflite on Boeing hydroplanes that was short lived as well.
- eru 3y agoThank the Jones Act for making travel between the islands (and between the islands and the US mainland) harder than it should be. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Merchant_Marine_Act_of_1920 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Merchant_Marine_Act_of_1920
- gottorf 3y agoDoesn't this not apply in Hawaii, since there's a state law (or multiple laws) that effectively forbid ferries between the islands? IIRC it was to avoid environmental cross-contamination.
- throw0101d 3y agoSeems that attempts at ferry service failed commercially: * https://old.reddit.com/r/geography/comments/175un38/why_doesnt_the_hawaiian_islands_have_a_ferry/ https://old.reddit.com/r/geography/comments/175un38/why_does... > Ferry operations were suspended in March 2009 after the Hawaii Supreme Court ruled that a state law allowing the Superferry to operate without a second complete environmental impact statement was unconstitutional.[2] The company went bankrupt as a result of these actions preventing service in Hawaii.[3] On July 2, 2009 a Delaware Bankruptcy Court granted the company's motion to abandon both the ships Alakai and Huakai, ending all possibilities that the company might return to Hawaii;[4] the ships were bought by the US Maritime Administration in 2010.[5] The United States Navy eventually purchased the craft for a total of $35M, a small fraction of their original $180M cost.[6] * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hawaii_Superferry https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hawaii_Superferry
- drak0n1c 3y agoThere was great demand but crowds of eco-protesters would block the landing and prevented all operation, so they saw no revenue for many quarters. Pretty soon there was no money left to continue operations, let alone deal with the lawsuits and regulatory pile-ons. The state went back to being reliant on airlines and big shipping vessels (which are more polluting).
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- jongjong 3y agoWhat happens if the hydrofoil hits a large dolphin, shark, whale or other large sea creature? Sea animals collide with motor boats occasionally but this Seaglider would be even more likely to do so because: - It doesn't produce as much underwater noise as a motor which would normally serve to alarm sea animals. - It goes a lot faster, giving sea animals less time to react. Then there is the concern about what a collision would cause to the Seaglider itself if the hydrofoil broke off or worse, didn't break off and caused the Seaglider to plunge, nose first, into the ocean. The other thing to be concerned about are sub-surface rocks. If a boat goes over a rock that's hidden just below the surface, it can badly damage the boat and motor and can cause death, but again, the faster you go, the more damage can be done.
- jouleshey 3y agoThat’s my concern too. A whale at high speeds can’t be safe
- gilbertbw 3y agoIt's only hydro-foiling on take-off and landing, in flight it's a plane in ground effect flying just above the sea.
- jongjong 3y agoTell that to the dolphins which swim along the shore line where the take offs and landings will be occurring.
- gilbertbw 3y agoMy point is that the lower risk for the majority of the journey will offset (partially or fully I do not know) the increased risk on take-off and landing. I would guess that the overall risk will end up lower for a WIG craft than a traditional high speed foiling vessel. Also rocks are only a concern in a small area of ocean around the takeoff and landing areas, which will presumably be fairly well surveyed.
- tlb 3y agoThe aerodynamic benefit of flying in ground effect is fairly small, and the disadvantage is that rogue waves can just randomly splash that high. The current plane's wingspan is 65 feet, which probably means it flies about 32 feet (half a wingspan) off the water. Rogue waves can easily be that high in mild weather, and hitting even a small amount of water at 200 mph (claimed cruise speed) is bad. Lots of sea birds too, presumably, at that altitude.
- defrost 3y agoSeriously good fun as a garage home build though: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1ILbQHnHPnY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1ILbQHnHPnY
- pelagic_sky 3y agoWatching that demo video was terrifying to me. The water is unpredictable and this thing wants to be close to it at full speed. It would have to be perfect conditions to get me into one of those.
- danans 3y ago> The aerodynamic benefit of flying in ground effect is fairly small It's small compared to regular flight, but it's far more efficient than a regular boat hull pushing the water. A lot of that efficiency is achieved in hydrofoil mode, but lifting into ground effect mode should be even more efficient than hydrofoil (albeit as you say at some loss of stability). There are already several electric hydrofoil pleasure boats available that have remarkable range, i.e. Navier and Candela.
- trhway 3y ago>The aerodynamic benefit of flying in ground effect is the certification of the craft as a ship instead of a plane. I think it'd be very easy to build today a flying boat like the ones from 30s (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boeing_314_Clipper https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boeing_314_Clipper), yet certification cost of it makes it unfeasible as a business endeavor. In general, if I remember correctly, the cheap inter-island transportation isn't really wanted there as it is expected to bring homeless/etc. to the otherwise affluent islands.
- happytiger 3y agoIt’s always cool to see a new contender trying to throw in their hat and get started. Don’t know about giving grants though. They should be able to drum up enough business to make it work if it’s going to be viable long term. Lot of inter-island hopping in Hawaii. The competitor to this is a boat, traditional airplane (including electric). Hawaii airlines is the “traditional way” to get between the islands: the main airline taking people between islands for a long time now. Southwest is also now a pretty formidable competitor to them. So really, any service just needs to compete with them, because that’s what everybody takes. I guess there is also Mokulele, Makani Kai and Lanai too for the four seasons crowd and I think there is a boat to Lanai from Maui too. I know people sometimes jump helicopters for way out. That’s expensive but there are a lot of places that are super hard to get to otherwise. I think there’s a real use case for a vtol taxi service. You’ll know this company is getting serious if after starting up (presuming they do) they start a rewards program with someone like Costco. That’s the best way to get local people using your service. Free points trips compensated by Costco purchases will put asses in seats in the islands for sure. Busiest Costco in the world is in Oahu.
- causi 3y agoSomething about the fact they're using twelve tiny propellers instead of a few big ones tells me this is going to fail.
- duxup 3y agoThese ground effect craft are super cool but I fear that these will also fail for the same reasons they have historically, reliability, unpredictable downtime due to being very sensitive to weather / ocean conditions. I suspect efficiency in what looks more like traditional air travel will be the way to go.
- dghughes 3y agoThe Seaglider would be great for my region of South-east Canada. There are four islands and two other areas each with at least three sides facing water. It wouldn't be open ocean so wave height shouldn't be too bad. The big thing here now is Right Whales ships bash their heads in since they seem to always be in the way of ships. Cruise ships, cargo ships, fishing all have to slow down to a crawl if whales are spotted. Flying would be far faster than ferry some take 8 hours others 1 hour. Although flights here are ridiculously expensive $800 to $1,000 one-way to go 150km.
- mproud 3y agoLast I in “Hawai’i” should be lowercase.
- tokai 3y agoWhy not HSCs? They work great for fast passenger travel between islands.
- throw0101d 3y agoMeta: it seems like Hawaii (Hawai'i) would be a pretty good place to be able to do public transit, given the not-huge distances involved on any particular island, but AFAICT, it's not very good there. Also it seems like it's not very bike / cycling friendly either: * https://www.civilbeat.org/2022/07/keona-blanks-when-it-comes-to-good-bikeways-hawaii-has-a-flat-tire/ https://www.civilbeat.org/2022/07/keona-blanks-when-it-comes...
- ghaff 3y agoYou do have to separate Honolulu from pretty much everywhere else in the islands. Most of the small town/cities/resort communities are quite walkable once you get there. Everything else is extremely spread out--rural for the most part by any reasonable measure. Also often difficult terrain.
- jauntywundrkind 3y agoThis suggests to me that there's a perhaps even better application for an eco-friendly high-speed water transport: intra-island transport! Rather than try to build and maintain difficult overland transport at land-speed, we could seaglider between coastal villages.
- upofadown 3y ago>What are some concerns that have been expressed about the Hawai‘i seaglider system? >A preliminary survey of Hawai‘i residents showed they are concerned that seagliders will only be affordable to the affluent ... So the fares might be too high. [...] >Others expressed their concern about how seagliders can potentially impact communities through an increase in visitors. So the fares might be too low.
- gnicholas 3y agoWould the person at the helm be a pilot or a captain?
- QuadmasterXLII 3y agoGround effect vehicles, tesla valves, and laminar flow: the horsemen of hacker news’s grasp of fluid dynamics
- Aaronstotle 3y agoHow does it ride over large waves
- joshuaheard 3y agoI like the concept. This is how pelicans flow low over the water. However, I have sailed between the Hawaiian islands. The air and water are turbulent due to trade winds and currents getting pushed through gaps in the islands, especially between Oahu and Maui, the most popular route. I looked at the video on their website and it didn't appear stable enough in flight to withstand a big puff pushing it down into a double-size wave. It would probably only work in a narrow weather window.
- BobaFloutist 3y agoI like how, depending on your zoom, scrolling makes a giant image cover the text you're trying to read, which never comes back. Fun.
- rpigab 3y agoDon't you guys have boats?
- hndamien 3y agoAn Ehang EVTOL would fly between most of these islands, all electric, no pilot, and so far, apparently very safe.