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Western firms are quaking as China's electric-car industry speeds up
- api 3y agoThis is what they get for investing in anti-EV FUD instead of investing in EVs. It’s also what they get for enshittifying cars. China might sell me the car I want: simple, ultra reliable, long range, no infotainment system, no tracking, no subscriptions, no attempts to foist software on me, and made of standard parts making it cheap to repair. Just a motor, battery, wheels, and basic car comforts. I don’t want to see China win this one but I’ve felt it coming for a while.
- Detrytus 3y ago> no tracking LOL, you do realize that you're talking about a totalitarian country with "social credit" system, and probably most advanced surveillance tech in the world?
- nathanyukai 3y agoNot sure if you realise that the social credit system is commonly misinterpreted ? It's just a similar financial credit score system in the west. Theres nothing in place that remotely looks like that episode of black mirror.
- actionfromafar 3y agoCan you spell out the similarities and differences?
- Avicebron 3y agoIdk. Looking at the credit system in the west I would say it's suitably dystopian so not really any points there
- medo-bear 3y agoIn a digitalized world, we all live in a totalitarian system. For example, Meta Corp has a relationship graph that would certainly make even the East German Stasi jealous and on a global scale. Fun fact: China has more liberal laws on cryptography than, for example, Australia (which mandates backdoors for companies operating in land of oz)
- tpm 3y ago> China might sell me the car I want: simple, ultra reliable, long range, no infotainment system, no tracking, no subscriptions, no attempts to foist software on me, and made of standard parts making it cheap to repair. Just a motor, battery, wheels, and basic car comforts. But it won't be like that, will it. There will be an infotainment system with broken features and no updates, there will be tracking and of course some software is inevitable in modern cars, not least because the regulations demand that. There will be no standard parts. The reliability remains to be seen.
- phpisthebest 3y agoDoes it have Android Auto... Because if it does that is all I need. Something GM is taking away
- rowyourboat 3y agoAll Chinese cars I've seen for sale here so far had infotainment systems and pointless use of touch screens.
- jtwaleson 3y agoIndeed, and this also explains the popularity of Dacia. I would go a step further and say that I don't even want some safety features if the cost/benefit ratio is not unequivocally positive. The safety push in the car industry is great for incumbent manufacturers but bad for consumers on a budget. I fully realize we still lose too many people in car accidents, but I'd rather use public transport or bikes for 90% of my travels and own a slightly unsafer but very cheap car that I use sporadically. (This is in a region that is very bike-friendly with superb public transport).
- unglaublich 3y agoThat's the problem, it's not about your safety, it's about that of your environment. And Dacia's, especially their cheap SUVs, are horrible at keeping pedestrians safe.
- adriancr 3y agoI wouldn't dismiss the safety feature a modern car has, you never know when you might need them. Features like auto braking system are incredible. I know someone where this saved a kids life (kid ran on the road from between cars right in front of a car). The crash safety feature on high end cars are also incredible, I know someone else with a completely mangled up car after a high speed crash just walk and be fine. I am also old enough to know people that have died or with lasting damage like paralysis or back issues from crashes quite some time ago.
- FLT8 3y agoI have a car with auto braking. It's never prevented an accident but has nearly caused a few. When exiting onto a cambered road, it senses the slope of the road in front of the car as being an object that it thinks I'm about to hit, and stops randomly. It then refuses to move again until I completely take my foot off the accelerator and depress the brake fully. The fact that it takes a good couple of seconds to coordinate all of this is super dangerous, especially when trying to pull out in a gap in a high traffic area. I'd rather take my chances without it to be honest. I've also had the lane-assist try and yank me towards oncoming traffic. Also not fun.
- bryanlarsen 3y ago[flagged]
- j-a-a-p 3y agohttps://www.squadmobility.com/ https://www.squadmobility.com/ I love the concept, but where I live there are too many trees....
- rightbyte 3y ago> no infotainment system, no tracking, no subscriptions, no attempts to foist software on me It would be hillarous if we start to prefer Chinese cars due to privacy reasons ... It wouldn't surprise me really if spyware are only to be made legal in cars the gov. feels it controls the manufacturer of.
- margorczynski 3y ago> This is what they get for investing in anti-EV FUD instead of investing in EVs. A lot of the "FUD" are actually very valid concerns - the energy needed, the grid, where to actually charge them when living in an apartment, many times without a dedicated garage space. On top of that the cost - cost of a new one and cost of repair. Sorry but seems a lot of the "FUD" argument comes from very well of IT/Tech people who live in a kind of ivory castle where $50k for a new car where one small fender-bender costs thousands is not much. > China might sell me the car I want: simple, ultra reliable, long range, no infotainment system, no tracking, no subscriptions, no attempts to foist software on me, and made of standard parts making it cheap to repair They won't, at least in the UE cause of regulations.
- nottorp 3y agoI don't know what the economist is saying because paywall, but the proud western * auto industry with hundreds of years of tradition combined should work on reducing prices instead of on super premium electric cars. * and Japanese. What are you thinking with those PHEV Rav prices, Toyota?
- Dalewyn 3y agoFor geopolitical purposes, Japan is part of the west along with South Korea.
- grotorea 3y agoMostly yes but I doubt anyone thinks Toyota when hearing "Western [car] firms".
- phpisthebest 3y agoMany Toyota vehicles are more "Made in America" than then many Ford and GM vehicles which are mostly made is Mexico these days save Ford Trucks. If you looking for a Made in US Car, Toyota is the brand you seek
- nottorp 3y agoNot my Toyotas, as I'm in Europe.
- nouryqt 3y agohttps://archive.is/UtTZP https://archive.is/UtTZP
- quonn 3y agoIt depends on the company. VW has a serious problem because they are selling a mass market product where they need to compete with the Chinese products. And while they make fine cars their infotainment system that now controls everything is still terrible (laggy touchscreens, complicated UI and so on) and the cars are expensive and their EVs are slow. Unlike many here I think touchscreens in a car are fine if done well (like Tesla), but getting it right is extremely important. On the other hand, BMW/Mercedes for example sell much based on brand recognition and to a market segment willing to pay a lot. This is unlikely to change soon, so their strategy is reasonable.
- soco 3y ago"quaking" I had to google that up to figure out whether I want to read the article or not.
- Fbnkigffb66tfbj 3y agoIt's a fairly common term in English. Think earthquake.
- Dalewyn 3y agoI have sincere doubts of "quaking"s happening, the west seemingly wants Pax Sino to arrive in full force and replace Pax Americana.
- RamblingCTO 3y agoI'm still skeptical. Let's wait for a few years and see how the quality, after market and customer support really is. In my experience, that's not a strong-suit of chinese brands.
- mytailorisrich 3y agoChinese companies iterate, learn, and adapt very quickly. If their goal is to be world-class automakers then they will quickly learn from local markets and adapt accordingly. For instance, I used to have a Huawei phone and the quality was on par with Apple and better than Samsung (taking Apple on was their goal and they executed accordingly). Tesla has been quite successful despite a few hickups along the way, including regarding quality. My guess is that Chinese brands can follow at least the same trajectory, if not better. Consider also that BYD supplies batteries to Tesla, at least in Europe. So at least on that front they seem to be world-class if not leaders.
- segfaltnh 3y agoWhy aren't there more Chinese automakers of gasoline cars?
- avtolik 3y agoThere are, but they were working mostly for internal market. Their brand recognition is not good with the western audience. But now with the electric cars - it is a brand new thing, so the chinese brands can try to push in the western markets.
- mytailorisrich 3y agoThere are, mostly within China. But obviously the strategy has been to leapfrog the competition and to go all in on battery tech and EVs rather than trying to play catch-up on soon-to-be obsolete tech.
- j-a-a-p 3y agoThe article has a nice graph where you can see Chinese had a 20 - 25% market share and the Western/Japanese has the remainder in the ICE era. Suddenly in the last years the Western/Japanse traditional manufacturers are squeezed to 40% and the trend looks, well, devastating. So yeah, the made ICEs but also in the home market that was not a convincing product.
- segfaltnh 3y agoThe article has a click bait title and then opens up with how fast the Chinese electric cars are compared to high end gas cars. Like, that's a core property of electric cars, nothing to do with incredible innovations in China...
- j-a-a-p 3y agoIt mentions: speed of development (much faster), a MVP concept of new model testing, a new breed of companies a la Tesla founded by tech billionaires, the old battery supply control story, BYD surpassing Tesla, ... I find it quit insightful if you want an update of the affairs in the car market. And I happen to have a friend in Germany in the industry, he acknowledges the utter fear the German brands have with the storm that is ahead (he is actually considering to leave Germany). The largest EV producer in the World only two weeks ago sent their first shipment to Europe. This 'clickbait' is just starting to unfold.
- segfaltnh 3y agoTo be honest I stopped reading after that intellectually dishonest opener. I didn't mean to suggest there wasn't truth to the claim or that the market wasn't ripe for a shakeup. Interesting anecdote, too, thanks for sharing.
- pnw 3y agoThat’s just a rhetorical flourish, hardly clickbait.
- _xnmw 3y agoChina fact of the day: https://marginalrevolution.com/marginalrevolution/2023/09/china-fact-of-the-day-72.html https://marginalrevolution.com/marginalrevolution/2023/09/ch... Notice how this hockey stick growth started shortly after February 2022, i.e. is a direct result of Western sanctions on Russia: https://x.com/brad_setser/status/1670842577862508556?s=46 https://x.com/brad_setser/status/1670842577862508556?s=46 edit: Chinese customs data shows during the first 11 months of 2023, China's vehicle shipments to Russia soared 545% from a year ago, to 840,000 units, making it China's fastest-growing market. New energy vehicles (NEVs), such as hybrids and electric vehicles (EVs), were also fueling the record production and exports”. https://www.voanews.com/a/russian-market-evs-give-china-fuel-to-pass-japan-as-top-car-exporter-/7438398.html https://www.voanews.com/a/russian-market-evs-give-china-fuel...
- trvz 3y agoSecond China fact of the day: nobody wants to sit in a Chinese car, not even the Chinese themselves.
- medo-bear 3y agoFor plenty of Europeans it is just fine https://www.goodcarbadcar.net/dacia-europe-sales-figures/ https://www.goodcarbadcar.net/dacia-europe-sales-figures/ EDIT: Wrong address above. See https://www.acea.auto/fact/fact-sheet-eu-china-vehicle-trade/ https://www.acea.auto/fact/fact-sheet-eu-china-vehicle-trade...
- badpun 3y agoHow's that relevant? Or are you thinking Dacia is Chinese?
- almatabata 3y agoDacia produces the EVs in China: https://europe.autonews.com/automakers/renaults-made-china-dacia-ev-angers-french-unions https://europe.autonews.com/automakers/renaults-made-china-d... The brand itself as you say is not Chinese.
- medo-bear 3y ago[flagged]
- taneq 3y agoA family member got a BYD Dolphin recently and it seems really nice. Not quite as chic and Apple-esque as a Tesla but heaps of cool features, surprisingly quick for a non-sports model, gets better range than advertised. Given the price relative to other similar vehicles I'm not surprised they're selling like hot cakes.
- matthewfelgate 3y agoWe should ban Chinese cars from European and American roads.
- wegfawefgawefg 3y agoI just want a normal car with buttons and knobs. New at <= $10,000. I dont need power windows. I dont need backup cameras. I dont need infotainment. Tons of people I know buy beaters from 20+ years ago because thats all they can afford, but would rather buy a new cheapo thing if it existed. There is a massive untapped market for cheap vehicles. nobody serving that market.
- swarnie 3y ago£7,861.40 in old money That's a shockingly small amount of money for a car. I can do you a Citroen Ami for £8,095 + your dignity. https://www.topgear.com/sites/default/files/2023/08/1-Citroen-Ami.jpg https://www.topgear.com/sites/default/files/2023/08/1-Citroe...
- wegfawefgawefg 3y agoHa looks cool! But im in the USA.
- thfuran 3y agoIt's illegal to serve that market, which is why no car manufacturer is doing it.
- wegfawefgawefg 3y agoWe should fix that.
- Mizza 3y agoI want one of those Japanese mini-trucks, but electric and US street legal. Make those for ~$10,000 and they'll sell like hot cakes.
- wegfawefgawefg 3y agoThere are a lot of cars here in japan for well under $10k new. They are also fully featured, and have electric sliding doors on both sides. I do not know how much these are subsidized.
- hnburnsy 3y agoWithout a dealer network how will they sell in the US? Will the UAW and their friendly politicians allow China to destroy the US domestic brands?
- LammyL 3y agoChinese manufacturers like BYD are opening plants in Mexico to get around the US protectionism against Chinese made cars. Blocking this would require serious changes to the USMCA. Tesla has proven you don’t need a dealer network to sell cars in the United States.
- TheLoafOfBread 3y agoAnd how are people going to service those cars? I mean it is not a phone, that you can make a million units, send it into the world and after EoP pretend that it never existed.