3 ms·

Success != Promotions > The FAANGs and similar corporate environments and even academia have unhealthily competitive "up or out" cultures. If given a choice b

Success != Promotions > The FAANGs and similar corporate environments and even academia have unhealthily competitive "up or out" cultures. If given a choice between "up or out" and "up" is not what one wants to do (for whatever reasons), then "out" is the only path which might lead to happiness, as "here" is not an option allowed.

refulgentis 3y ago
Simply untrue. FAANG would be _very_ happy to not have to promote.
- voiceblue 3y ago
  FAANG is not a person. Your director is. And your director wants to empire build, which means the average count and level of the org under them must rise, partially via promotions. I’m not sure why you came up with this statement, I’d love an explanation. Certainly people are apathetic about many things at FAANG, but they are rarely apathetic about their own career. No one is particularly happy about “coasters” (people who may or may not be coasting but aren’t playing “the game”) who are quite frankly singled out for victimization and almost everyone would rather that they quit.
  - umutisik 3y ago
    Not my experience at Amazon. If an employee is performing but not growing, then their manager has some explaining to do as it is usually the case that the employee wants to grow but manager is not developing them the way they should be. I have seen plenty of cases where an employee just does not want to get promoted, the manager explains, and it’s fine.
  - refulgentis 3y ago
    - Your priors were correct but are newly out of date (no headcount growth since late 2021, completely new regime) - "No one is particularly happy about “coasters”" - your word, your assertion - quite frankly singled out for victimization and almost everyone would rather that they quit: I could see it, heard horror stories about Amazon, Google had great work/life balance. It absolutely was not expected you were busting ass for promo. Infamously you'd usually get a better grade by doing less. It was a "don't like tryhards" culture.
- AdieuToLogic 3y ago
  The post I replied to read, in part: > ... people are simply not allowed to not care about success or they'll get washed out because of low promotion velocity. And you state: > Simply untrue. FAANG would be _very_ happy to not have to promote. So how is what I wrote; "Simply untrue"? Or did you mean to reply to the GP and not me?
- charles_f 3y ago
  I was a manager in one of them. Under a certain level (which levels were called "terminal" because you could end your life there), too many "months at level" was officially deemed suspicious per the annual reviews guidelines, and subject to scrutiny and potential PIP. Completely true. Not for all of them, but at least one.
giantg2 3y ago
"If given a choice between "up or out" and "up" is not what one wants to do (for whatever reasons), then "out" is the only path which might lead to happiness, as "here" is not an option allowed." You're doing it wrong. This is about politics, not happiness. If you aren't moving up, then you're a loser like the rest of us. Have to climb for power and money.
- MichaelZuo 3y ago
  Not entirely true, some small fraction are so satisfied and so competent at their work that they actually engage in office politics in order to not to be promoted beyond their sweet spot. See Peter Principle, etc...
  - mlrtime 3y ago
    Just an annecdote, but in my last team we were all Staff SWE except one Senior. He was clearly performing at Staff level and our manager wanted to promote him (not for manager stats, but for the IC). He (IC5) clearly was not interested. He was happy with the pay and did not want all the other BS/Responsibilities that comes with Staff.
    - jrs235 3y ago
      Sadly higher ups see this as lacking ambition/motivation rather than someone knowing what they want.
      - giantg2 3y ago
        Exactly. My company has official trainings for managers that explicitly states that ambition is one of the 3 main talent identifiers for the company.
- AdieuToLogic 3y ago
  > You're doing it wrong. Perhaps I am, perhaps not. It depends on what one values I suppose. > This is about politics, not happiness. If you aren't moving up, then you're a loser like the rest of us. Have to climb for power and money. "Power and money" are antithetical to happiness. Ultimately, one can choose to pursue the former, the latter, or neither, but not both. Which is "better" is of course subjective and the subject of much thought by philosophers for millennia. Choose wisely.

refulgentis 3y ago

Simply untrue. FAANG would be _very_ happy to not have to promote.

voiceblue 3y ago
FAANG is not a person. Your director is. And your director wants to empire build, which means the average count and level of the org under them must rise, partially via promotions. I’m not sure why you came up with this statement, I’d love an explanation. Certainly people are apathetic about many things at FAANG, but they are rarely apathetic about their own career. No one is particularly happy about “coasters” (people who may or may not be coasting but aren’t playing “the game”) who are quite frankly singled out for victimization and almost everyone would rather that they quit.
- umutisik 3y ago
  Not my experience at Amazon. If an employee is performing but not growing, then their manager has some explaining to do as it is usually the case that the employee wants to grow but manager is not developing them the way they should be. I have seen plenty of cases where an employee just does not want to get promoted, the manager explains, and it’s fine.
- refulgentis 3y ago
  - Your priors were correct but are newly out of date (no headcount growth since late 2021, completely new regime) - "No one is particularly happy about “coasters”" - your word, your assertion - quite frankly singled out for victimization and almost everyone would rather that they quit: I could see it, heard horror stories about Amazon, Google had great work/life balance. It absolutely was not expected you were busting ass for promo. Infamously you'd usually get a better grade by doing less. It was a "don't like tryhards" culture.
AdieuToLogic 3y ago
The post I replied to read, in part: > ... people are simply not allowed to not care about success or they'll get washed out because of low promotion velocity. And you state: > Simply untrue. FAANG would be _very_ happy to not have to promote. So how is what I wrote; "Simply untrue"? Or did you mean to reply to the GP and not me?
charles_f 3y ago
I was a manager in one of them. Under a certain level (which levels were called "terminal" because you could end your life there), too many "months at level" was officially deemed suspicious per the annual reviews guidelines, and subject to scrutiny and potential PIP. Completely true. Not for all of them, but at least one.

giantg2 3y ago

"If given a choice between "up or out" and "up" is not what one wants to do (for whatever reasons), then "out" is the only path which might lead to happiness, as "here" is not an option allowed." You're doing it wrong. This is about politics, not happiness. If you aren't moving up, then you're a loser like the rest of us. Have to climb for power and money.

MichaelZuo 3y ago
Not entirely true, some small fraction are so satisfied and so competent at their work that they actually engage in office politics in order to not to be promoted beyond their sweet spot. See Peter Principle, etc...
- mlrtime 3y ago
  Just an annecdote, but in my last team we were all Staff SWE except one Senior. He was clearly performing at Staff level and our manager wanted to promote him (not for manager stats, but for the IC). He (IC5) clearly was not interested. He was happy with the pay and did not want all the other BS/Responsibilities that comes with Staff.
  - jrs235 3y ago
    Sadly higher ups see this as lacking ambition/motivation rather than someone knowing what they want.
    - giantg2 3y ago
      Exactly. My company has official trainings for managers that explicitly states that ambition is one of the 3 main talent identifiers for the company.
AdieuToLogic 3y ago
> You're doing it wrong. Perhaps I am, perhaps not. It depends on what one values I suppose. > This is about politics, not happiness. If you aren't moving up, then you're a loser like the rest of us. Have to climb for power and money. "Power and money" are antithetical to happiness. Ultimately, one can choose to pursue the former, the latter, or neither, but not both. Which is "better" is of course subjective and the subject of much thought by philosophers for millennia. Choose wisely.