6 ms·

> "So, it seems office politics is not optional' is based on the unstated premise: 'if success in the workplace is the only thing you care about.'" The FAANGs

> "So, it seems office politics is not optional' is based on the unstated premise: 'if success in the workplace is the only thing you care about.'" The FAANGs and similar corporate environments and even academia have unhealthily competitive "up or out" cultures. In those places, people are simply not allowed to not care about success or they'll get washed out because of low promotion velocity.

kylebenzle 3y ago
Was trying to find a way to reply to your comment about my book. But yes, I wrote a scifi novel about a computer hacker and occasionally post it here. Calling me a "shill" for trying to promote my book seems harsh. Have you ever tried to accomplish anything in your life? How would you suggest a new author gets their work outlet there?
- ThrowawayR2 3y ago
  Your account has been around long enough that you should be amply familiar with the HN guidelines linked at the bottom of the page, particularly the one about not using HN for promoting your own products. However, if you believe that your post has been unfairly flagged, you may contact the site moderators, whose email address is also in the guidelines, and make your case to them.
refulgentis 3y ago
This isn't true at all at Google (well, wasn't, 2016-2023). The value was/is in signalling you don't care. Large portions of employees are ye olde Ivy League grad / 2nd generation wealthy. More WASP values than hacker values.
AdieuToLogic 3y ago
Success != Promotions > The FAANGs and similar corporate environments and even academia have unhealthily competitive "up or out" cultures. If given a choice between "up or out" and "up" is not what one wants to do (for whatever reasons), then "out" is the only path which might lead to happiness, as "here" is not an option allowed.
- refulgentis 3y ago
  Simply untrue. FAANG would be _very_ happy to not have to promote.
  - voiceblue 3y ago
    FAANG is not a person. Your director is. And your director wants to empire build, which means the average count and level of the org under them must rise, partially via promotions. I’m not sure why you came up with this statement, I’d love an explanation. Certainly people are apathetic about many things at FAANG, but they are rarely apathetic about their own career. No one is particularly happy about “coasters” (people who may or may not be coasting but aren’t playing “the game”) who are quite frankly singled out for victimization and almost everyone would rather that they quit.
    - umutisik 3y ago
      Not my experience at Amazon. If an employee is performing but not growing, then their manager has some explaining to do as it is usually the case that the employee wants to grow but manager is not developing them the way they should be. I have seen plenty of cases where an employee just does not want to get promoted, the manager explains, and it’s fine.
    - refulgentis 3y ago
      - Your priors were correct but are newly out of date (no headcount growth since late 2021, completely new regime) - "No one is particularly happy about “coasters”" - your word, your assertion - quite frankly singled out for victimization and almost everyone would rather that they quit: I could see it, heard horror stories about Amazon, Google had great work/life balance. It absolutely was not expected you were busting ass for promo. Infamously you'd usually get a better grade by doing less. It was a "don't like tryhards" culture.
  - AdieuToLogic 3y ago
    The post I replied to read, in part: > ... people are simply not allowed to not care about success or they'll get washed out because of low promotion velocity. And you state: > Simply untrue. FAANG would be _very_ happy to not have to promote. So how is what I wrote; "Simply untrue"? Or did you mean to reply to the GP and not me?
loeg 3y ago
Once you reach terminal (IC5), promotion velocity doesn't matter. Up or out is only for IC3-4.
- riku_iki 3y ago
  do they really fire someone who couldn't get to this level in N years?
  - fnfjfk 3y ago
    Yes, the theory is that IC3/4 cost more than they produce. That being said it's really not that hard to advance at these junior levels, very little to do with politics and very much to do with becoming a competent and independently-productive engineer.
    - deleted 3y ago
      [deleted]
    - loeg 3y ago
      I would describe it as IC3/4s are more of a job training program for IC5, which they actually want.
  - hvdtbb 3y ago
    [dead]
  - toast0 3y ago
    Yes. I don't know how it works at other places, but at FB, according to the manager training I went through, after you were in a 'non-terminal' position beyond the time limit, they would evaluate you according to the rubric for the next level up. Presumably, you would get bad reviews because you weren't doing the things for that level (it wasn't clear to me if you would be told that you were going to be evaluated at that level), and then you'd get on a 'performance improvement plan' and then likely terminated. Thankfully, I wasn't a manager for long, and didn't have to see that happen.
giantg2 3y ago
I heard my company tries to push out people with low promotion velocity. I'm 12 years in with only 1 promotion. I'm the lowest velocity. I'm too stubborn (scared of finding a new job with a disability) to push out though.
nickd2001 3y ago
Indeed, "up or out" turns friends into rivals, prevents teamwork. Coworkers hoard info to prevent you looking too good compared to them. As result you can struggle to learn anything without being pushy or playing politics. If someone's doing a great job at work and they want to "coast" and do the same great job next year, seems good to me. But apparently not allowed in those up or out places. To anyone that finds that happening at work, my advice is GTFO. ;). ( I worked at place like this once. Happily managed to find a much nicer place to work after a year-and-a-half of it)

kylebenzle 3y ago

Was trying to find a way to reply to your comment about my book. But yes, I wrote a scifi novel about a computer hacker and occasionally post it here. Calling me a "shill" for trying to promote my book seems harsh. Have you ever tried to accomplish anything in your life? How would you suggest a new author gets their work outlet there?

ThrowawayR2 3y ago
Your account has been around long enough that you should be amply familiar with the HN guidelines linked at the bottom of the page, particularly the one about not using HN for promoting your own products. However, if you believe that your post has been unfairly flagged, you may contact the site moderators, whose email address is also in the guidelines, and make your case to them.

refulgentis 3y ago

This isn't true at all at Google (well, wasn't, 2016-2023). The value was/is in signalling you don't care. Large portions of employees are ye olde Ivy League grad / 2nd generation wealthy. More WASP values than hacker values.

AdieuToLogic 3y ago

Success != Promotions > The FAANGs and similar corporate environments and even academia have unhealthily competitive "up or out" cultures. If given a choice between "up or out" and "up" is not what one wants to do (for whatever reasons), then "out" is the only path which might lead to happiness, as "here" is not an option allowed.

refulgentis 3y ago
Simply untrue. FAANG would be _very_ happy to not have to promote.
- voiceblue 3y ago
  FAANG is not a person. Your director is. And your director wants to empire build, which means the average count and level of the org under them must rise, partially via promotions. I’m not sure why you came up with this statement, I’d love an explanation. Certainly people are apathetic about many things at FAANG, but they are rarely apathetic about their own career. No one is particularly happy about “coasters” (people who may or may not be coasting but aren’t playing “the game”) who are quite frankly singled out for victimization and almost everyone would rather that they quit.
  - umutisik 3y ago
    Not my experience at Amazon. If an employee is performing but not growing, then their manager has some explaining to do as it is usually the case that the employee wants to grow but manager is not developing them the way they should be. I have seen plenty of cases where an employee just does not want to get promoted, the manager explains, and it’s fine.
  - refulgentis 3y ago
    - Your priors were correct but are newly out of date (no headcount growth since late 2021, completely new regime) - "No one is particularly happy about “coasters”" - your word, your assertion - quite frankly singled out for victimization and almost everyone would rather that they quit: I could see it, heard horror stories about Amazon, Google had great work/life balance. It absolutely was not expected you were busting ass for promo. Infamously you'd usually get a better grade by doing less. It was a "don't like tryhards" culture.
- AdieuToLogic 3y ago
  The post I replied to read, in part: > ... people are simply not allowed to not care about success or they'll get washed out because of low promotion velocity. And you state: > Simply untrue. FAANG would be _very_ happy to not have to promote. So how is what I wrote; "Simply untrue"? Or did you mean to reply to the GP and not me?

loeg 3y ago

Once you reach terminal (IC5), promotion velocity doesn't matter. Up or out is only for IC3-4.

riku_iki 3y ago
do they really fire someone who couldn't get to this level in N years?
- fnfjfk 3y ago
  Yes, the theory is that IC3/4 cost more than they produce. That being said it's really not that hard to advance at these junior levels, very little to do with politics and very much to do with becoming a competent and independently-productive engineer.
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
  - loeg 3y ago
    I would describe it as IC3/4s are more of a job training program for IC5, which they actually want.
- hvdtbb 3y ago
  [dead]
- toast0 3y ago
  Yes. I don't know how it works at other places, but at FB, according to the manager training I went through, after you were in a 'non-terminal' position beyond the time limit, they would evaluate you according to the rubric for the next level up. Presumably, you would get bad reviews because you weren't doing the things for that level (it wasn't clear to me if you would be told that you were going to be evaluated at that level), and then you'd get on a 'performance improvement plan' and then likely terminated. Thankfully, I wasn't a manager for long, and didn't have to see that happen.

giantg2 3y ago

I heard my company tries to push out people with low promotion velocity. I'm 12 years in with only 1 promotion. I'm the lowest velocity. I'm too stubborn (scared of finding a new job with a disability) to push out though.

nickd2001 3y ago

Indeed, "up or out" turns friends into rivals, prevents teamwork. Coworkers hoard info to prevent you looking too good compared to them. As result you can struggle to learn anything without being pushy or playing politics. If someone's doing a great job at work and they want to "coast" and do the same great job next year, seems good to me. But apparently not allowed in those up or out places. To anyone that finds that happening at work, my advice is GTFO. ;). ( I worked at place like this once. Happily managed to find a much nicer place to work after a year-and-a-half of it)