5 ms·

this comment represent a weird sentiment: if you drugt test in one field, you should equally drug test I all fields. How many airplanes crashed due to The pilo

this comment represent a weird sentiment: if you drugt test in one field, you should equally drug test I all fields. How many airplanes crashed due to The pilot being on drugs? it seems like introducing a whole machinery to just have the same resting is an industrial scale waste of resources. However, people regularly die because of drunk and tired drivers.

sshine 3y ago
There is some implicit assumption that drug testing is a safety measure. I am quite convinced it is a productivity measure.
- goodpoint 3y ago
  It's neither.
- Broken_Hippo 3y ago
  it is neither. Otherwise, you'd see productivity being better in places that allow drug testing of normal employees and worse off in places that do not. But that's not the case: Retail employees in Norway aren't really less productive than those in the US. Plus, if it really were a productivity measure, why would you not drug test more professionals and salaried employees? Does their productivity not matter? Wouldn't more small businesses find drug testing worth the money?
  - sshine 3y ago
    Doing drugs may affect your productivity at work. Depending on the drug, and the circumstances. I'm sorry to say.
    - lumost 3y ago
      I don’t believe that this has any bearing on why individuals are drug tested at work. Particularly when tests with longer durations are used. What business does an employer have with employee drug use outside of work?
    - Broken_Hippo 3y ago
      That doesn't mean that drug tests make for better productivity. I didn't say that drugs never have that effect. And like you say, May. The same drug might have different effects for different folks, too.
  - QuadmasterXLII 3y ago
    You’ve got causation backwards, look at the norway vs US overdoses per capita
    - Broken_Hippo 3y ago
      Do you think employer drug tests decrease overdoses?
- creato 3y ago
  It’s solely a way for insurance companies to get out of paying claims. If drug testing was motivated by productivity, amphetamines wouldn’t be tested for.
- madsbuch 3y ago
  so a truck drives faster when the driver is completely sober? the plane flies faster when the pilot is not on drugs?
  - sokoloff 3y ago
    To any extent that a truck driver misses a pickup or fails to report due to alcohol or subsequent effects, yes, that truck that isn’t moving at all is moving slower than one that’s loaded, crewed, and rolling.
awongh 3y ago
> How many airplanes crashed due to The pilot being on drugs? As long as testing is uncommon you could say that number will remain at zero or near zero simply for lack of data. You comment implies but doesn’t state explicitly that you think truck drivers are more likely than pilots to be on drugs, is that true though?
- vasco 3y ago
  Based on likely social setting difference due to salary difference plus the fact that truck drivers go through seedy places and do many long stretches alone, compared to pilots frequenting airports and hotels, and always working with a crew, I'm sure truck drivers use more drugs than airplane pilots. If you are not sure of this, I think your mind is "too open".
  - jonathankoren 3y ago
    This comment betrays the old and persistent idea that lower status people are inherently shifty and lazy, while higher status people are inherently more virtuous. Let’s say for argument’s sake that truck drivers proportionally engage in more risky behavior. This can be either the use of stimulants or simply driving tired. Why is that? Drivers’ — like many low status workers — jobs security is more precarious and are monitored more. Therefore, they’re more likely to engage in risky behavior in a desire to simply not be fired. Now let’s get back to pilots. Is it just that airline pilots are a high status job like ceo? Not entirely. Pilots are essentially no different than truck drivers in the sky. Ironically, it’s because planes themselves are tracked by a competent and vigorous government agency, that employers can’t put the same pressures on pilots that they can on truck drivers.
    - tengbretson 3y ago
      > They don't but if they do its justified.
    - d0gsg0w00f 3y ago
      This comment betrays the old and persistent idea that lower status people are inherently shifty and lazy, while higher status people are inherently more virtuous. I think this is because people are applying survivorship bias. It's really difficult to make it to those status levels while abusing drugs and alcohol. And even if you party hard at the top you must be able to "handle your shit". Success at the top is a careful dance of social nuance. If you fly to an on-site, get drunk in the hotel bar, and are late to the meeting or smell like booze, you're social status will be impacted unless you're a wizard with social excuses or make up for it in some other way. So--in a way--the success is the greatest drug test.
virtue3 3y ago
How many bad economic decisions were based on cocaine usage back in the day? I think the point is that with higher paying and salaried jobs you are practically exempt from having repercussions due to drug usage while a lowerpaid wage worker is constantly in fear of getting fired over it.
- ysofunny 3y ago
  arguably, by a similar logic, world war 2 was started by terrible decisions made while high on speed
  - llamaLord 3y ago
    Has there actually been any hard evidence to support this idea? I know there's a fair bit to support Hitler being basically a junkie by the end of the war, but pre-war I'm pretty sure he was just a meglomaniacal psychopath.
  - wkat4242 3y ago
    Hitler was also talking cocaine eye drops, his personal physician was batshit insane. A good match of course as Hitler himself was too. Of course no law would have prevented this because the Nazis made the law in Germany.
- auxfil 3y ago
  [dead]
thefz 3y ago
Ok, what about testing politicians? Their decisions impact millions and it's in the public interest that they can reason at their best.
klabb3 3y ago
> How many airplanes crashed due to The pilot being on drugs? This is an interesting question but not all drugs decrease performance. For instance, if a pilot responsibly takes some wakey meds before landing a long haul flight it may be a good thing. There’s a reason for the “I can’t function before the morning coffee” expression. I remember a documentary many years ago about long haul pilots who went partying HARD the day before flying back from Bangkok, Tokyo or places like that. They wouldn’t have been allowed to drive, but flew hundreds of passengers. It was filmed undercover, but I don’t remember if there was a backlash/consequences.
- mschuster91 3y ago
  > There’s a reason for the “I can’t function before the morning coffee” expression. Yeah, a lot of people tend to be later-risers. The realities of the 9-5 job mean that they have to get up at 6-7 to get the kids ready for school, then get themselves ready for work, and then the commute to work... despite that going completely against their chronotype. WFH alleviates a lot of that stress.
- em-bee 3y ago
  I can’t function before the morning coffee i recently met someone who stopped drinking coffee and after a while realized that the only reason he could not function without having a coffee before was that he must have been addicted to it. once he got off that addiction the problem went away. the only reason that stops me from functioning in the morning is lack of sleep.
  - ydant 3y ago
    I was never "can't function" level, but stopping caffeine did open my eyes to how much of a fog I was in until the caffeine was dripped in. After a month or so of no caffeine I started realizing I could just wake up and feel instantly as alert as I normally would an hour or so into my day when taking caffeine. But ultimately it comes down to sleep. Caffeine just masked sleep problems. If I don't sleep well, I still crave it. If I sleep well, I don't think about it anymore.
- babyshake 3y ago
ekianjo 3y ago
> How many airplanes crashed due to The pilot being on drugs? good question, but there is just no way to get an answer
- sokoloff 3y ago
  Nearly every NTSB report of a major accident has a post-mortem analysis for alcohol and other drugs. (When it’s missing, it’s usually because no body was recovered.) Every crew involved in a commercial aviation mishap knows they’ll be tested as well. There may be no way to get an answer with 6 significant figures, but you can get a pretty good answer.
calamari4065 3y ago
How many people regularly die because your grocery store cashier smokes weed after their shift? How many people could be hurt by a drunk pilot, and how many could be hurt by working at a Walmart while high? The point is that we test where there is no reasonable danger at all and don't test when there is. Why? We drug test poor people and not wealthy people.
- firesteelrain 3y ago
  My daughter worked at Publix and was only drug tested at time of employment. Just like I did when I got my engineering job. I heard Publix does random drug testing, not sure. Walmart is the same. “ After pilots and flight attendants have been hired, they are subject to random drug screenings. Federal regulation detail the percentage of the total employees who should be subject to random testing in a given year, and this figure is usually around 50% and varies by the positive test rate from previous data. As drug testing is random, flight and ramp crew don't know when these tests will occur. Pilots and flight attendants who are randomly selected for drug screenings will often be met on the jet bridge after passengers have deplaned. An official holding a clipboard is usually the sign of an upcoming random drug screening.” - https://simpleflying.com/pilot-drug-test-frequency-guide/ https://simpleflying.com/pilot-drug-test-frequency-guide/

sshine 3y ago

There is some implicit assumption that drug testing is a safety measure. I am quite convinced it is a productivity measure.

goodpoint 3y ago
It's neither.
Broken_Hippo 3y ago
it is neither. Otherwise, you'd see productivity being better in places that allow drug testing of normal employees and worse off in places that do not. But that's not the case: Retail employees in Norway aren't really less productive than those in the US. Plus, if it really were a productivity measure, why would you not drug test more professionals and salaried employees? Does their productivity not matter? Wouldn't more small businesses find drug testing worth the money?
- sshine 3y ago
  Doing drugs may affect your productivity at work. Depending on the drug, and the circumstances. I'm sorry to say.
  - lumost 3y ago
    I don’t believe that this has any bearing on why individuals are drug tested at work. Particularly when tests with longer durations are used. What business does an employer have with employee drug use outside of work?
  - Broken_Hippo 3y ago
    That doesn't mean that drug tests make for better productivity. I didn't say that drugs never have that effect. And like you say, May. The same drug might have different effects for different folks, too.
- QuadmasterXLII 3y ago
  You’ve got causation backwards, look at the norway vs US overdoses per capita
  - Broken_Hippo 3y ago
    Do you think employer drug tests decrease overdoses?
creato 3y ago
It’s solely a way for insurance companies to get out of paying claims. If drug testing was motivated by productivity, amphetamines wouldn’t be tested for.
madsbuch 3y ago
so a truck drives faster when the driver is completely sober? the plane flies faster when the pilot is not on drugs?
- sokoloff 3y ago
  To any extent that a truck driver misses a pickup or fails to report due to alcohol or subsequent effects, yes, that truck that isn’t moving at all is moving slower than one that’s loaded, crewed, and rolling.

awongh 3y ago

> How many airplanes crashed due to The pilot being on drugs? As long as testing is uncommon you could say that number will remain at zero or near zero simply for lack of data. You comment implies but doesn’t state explicitly that you think truck drivers are more likely than pilots to be on drugs, is that true though?

vasco 3y ago
Based on likely social setting difference due to salary difference plus the fact that truck drivers go through seedy places and do many long stretches alone, compared to pilots frequenting airports and hotels, and always working with a crew, I'm sure truck drivers use more drugs than airplane pilots. If you are not sure of this, I think your mind is "too open".
- jonathankoren 3y ago
  This comment betrays the old and persistent idea that lower status people are inherently shifty and lazy, while higher status people are inherently more virtuous. Let’s say for argument’s sake that truck drivers proportionally engage in more risky behavior. This can be either the use of stimulants or simply driving tired. Why is that? Drivers’ — like many low status workers — jobs security is more precarious and are monitored more. Therefore, they’re more likely to engage in risky behavior in a desire to simply not be fired. Now let’s get back to pilots. Is it just that airline pilots are a high status job like ceo? Not entirely. Pilots are essentially no different than truck drivers in the sky. Ironically, it’s because planes themselves are tracked by a competent and vigorous government agency, that employers can’t put the same pressures on pilots that they can on truck drivers.
  - tengbretson 3y ago
    > They don't but if they do its justified.
  - d0gsg0w00f 3y ago
    This comment betrays the old and persistent idea that lower status people are inherently shifty and lazy, while higher status people are inherently more virtuous. I think this is because people are applying survivorship bias. It's really difficult to make it to those status levels while abusing drugs and alcohol. And even if you party hard at the top you must be able to "handle your shit". Success at the top is a careful dance of social nuance. If you fly to an on-site, get drunk in the hotel bar, and are late to the meeting or smell like booze, you're social status will be impacted unless you're a wizard with social excuses or make up for it in some other way. So--in a way--the success is the greatest drug test.

virtue3 3y ago

How many bad economic decisions were based on cocaine usage back in the day? I think the point is that with higher paying and salaried jobs you are practically exempt from having repercussions due to drug usage while a lowerpaid wage worker is constantly in fear of getting fired over it.

ysofunny 3y ago
arguably, by a similar logic, world war 2 was started by terrible decisions made while high on speed
- llamaLord 3y ago
  Has there actually been any hard evidence to support this idea? I know there's a fair bit to support Hitler being basically a junkie by the end of the war, but pre-war I'm pretty sure he was just a meglomaniacal psychopath.
- wkat4242 3y ago
  Hitler was also talking cocaine eye drops, his personal physician was batshit insane. A good match of course as Hitler himself was too. Of course no law would have prevented this because the Nazis made the law in Germany.
auxfil 3y ago
[dead]

thefz 3y ago

Ok, what about testing politicians? Their decisions impact millions and it's in the public interest that they can reason at their best.

klabb3 3y ago

> How many airplanes crashed due to The pilot being on drugs? This is an interesting question but not all drugs decrease performance. For instance, if a pilot responsibly takes some wakey meds before landing a long haul flight it may be a good thing. There’s a reason for the “I can’t function before the morning coffee” expression. I remember a documentary many years ago about long haul pilots who went partying HARD the day before flying back from Bangkok, Tokyo or places like that. They wouldn’t have been allowed to drive, but flew hundreds of passengers. It was filmed undercover, but I don’t remember if there was a backlash/consequences.

mschuster91 3y ago
> There’s a reason for the “I can’t function before the morning coffee” expression. Yeah, a lot of people tend to be later-risers. The realities of the 9-5 job mean that they have to get up at 6-7 to get the kids ready for school, then get themselves ready for work, and then the commute to work... despite that going completely against their chronotype. WFH alleviates a lot of that stress.
em-bee 3y ago
I can’t function before the morning coffee i recently met someone who stopped drinking coffee and after a while realized that the only reason he could not function without having a coffee before was that he must have been addicted to it. once he got off that addiction the problem went away. the only reason that stops me from functioning in the morning is lack of sleep.
- ydant 3y ago
  I was never "can't function" level, but stopping caffeine did open my eyes to how much of a fog I was in until the caffeine was dripped in. After a month or so of no caffeine I started realizing I could just wake up and feel instantly as alert as I normally would an hour or so into my day when taking caffeine. But ultimately it comes down to sleep. Caffeine just masked sleep problems. If I don't sleep well, I still crave it. If I sleep well, I don't think about it anymore.
babyshake 3y ago

ekianjo 3y ago

> How many airplanes crashed due to The pilot being on drugs? good question, but there is just no way to get an answer

sokoloff 3y ago
Nearly every NTSB report of a major accident has a post-mortem analysis for alcohol and other drugs. (When it’s missing, it’s usually because no body was recovered.) Every crew involved in a commercial aviation mishap knows they’ll be tested as well. There may be no way to get an answer with 6 significant figures, but you can get a pretty good answer.

calamari4065 3y ago

How many people regularly die because your grocery store cashier smokes weed after their shift? How many people could be hurt by a drunk pilot, and how many could be hurt by working at a Walmart while high? The point is that we test where there is no reasonable danger at all and don't test when there is. Why? We drug test poor people and not wealthy people.

firesteelrain 3y ago
My daughter worked at Publix and was only drug tested at time of employment. Just like I did when I got my engineering job. I heard Publix does random drug testing, not sure. Walmart is the same. “ After pilots and flight attendants have been hired, they are subject to random drug screenings. Federal regulation detail the percentage of the total employees who should be subject to random testing in a given year, and this figure is usually around 50% and varies by the positive test rate from previous data. As drug testing is random, flight and ramp crew don't know when these tests will occur. Pilots and flight attendants who are randomly selected for drug screenings will often be met on the jet bridge after passengers have deplaned. An official holding a clipboard is usually the sign of an upcoming random drug screening.” - https://simpleflying.com/pilot-drug-test-frequency-guide/ https://simpleflying.com/pilot-drug-test-frequency-guide/