5 ms·

Loops and Arcs

66 points by dwynings 14y ago

davidtyleryork 14y ago
Another great post by you guys. Love the distinction between Loops and Arcs, though I'd love a specific example of Arc -> Loop -> Arc as a primary game flow. Most RPG games (like Mass Effect) go Arc -> Arc -> Arc, with Loops typically being regulated to side quests or objectives (like resource harvesting). In RTS games, the entire game is Loop -> Loop -> Loop as far as gameplay is concerned, and then the story itself is an Arc.
- mbel 14y ago
  Well, he gave quite specific example of `sandwich design': "This is your typical cutscene-gameplay-cutescene sandwich." Where cutscenes are arcs as player is to watch them once and actual gameplay is build by looped actions. I haven't played Mass Effect, but I guess this is an example of such design; in all cRPG games gameplay is kind of loop build of schemes like talking to/fighting with NPC, walking around and collecting items.
teamonkey 14y ago
There are some very strong reasons why arcs dominate and they're not all financial. 1) People get bored and need change. This can be partly satisfied by a larger loop that varies the gameplay mechanics, one method being "exotic gameplay" (such as bonus levels). 2) People need closure and the feeling that they've finished a task. A visibly endless task with no goal is a thankless task. 3) People get satisfaction in closed cause-and-effect chains (and have limited working memory space to process them), by which I mean converting a short string of events into a story.
- chii 14y ago
  "2) People need closure and the feeling that they've finished a task. A visibly endless task with no goal is a thankless task." This is not necessarily true. Its only true if the game frames itself to be a task to be completed (for fun). There are (very few) games that are called "sandbox" games, where there are no ending. The player decides what their goal (if any) is. An example of such a game is Eve online, the sims, and simcity.
  - philwelch 14y ago
    Classic games like Tetris or Missile Command are also loops, albeit loops that one inevitably fails to complete.
  - teamonkey 14y ago
    Flow theory[1] dictates that there has to be clear goals set in place, whether they are set by the game or player. More than this, these goals need to challenge the player while still being achievable. The problem is that when playing a game not everyone can (or wants to) set their own goals in this way. It takes a small amount of persistence and discipline, which might not be appropriate for a game that is supposed to be played as a leisure activity. [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flow_%28psychology%29#Conditions_for_flow http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flow_%28psychology%29#Condition...
jacobolus 14y ago
I really like this metaphor. I think one of the biggest problems with the way we spend our modern lives is that we’ve made the payoffs at the ends of “arcy” activities (media “consumption”, tweeting and snapshotting our daily lives, buying food from restaurants instead of hunting or even cooking, buying clothes instead of making them, buying houses instead of building them, hiring mechanics and plumbers instead of fixing our own things, hiring landscapers instead of growing our own gardens) so incredibly stimulating that we lose patience for “loopy” activities. Up to a certain point, we get more “pleasure” out of just enjoying the fruits of mass production and other people’s labor. But we run a real danger of forcing the loopy parts out of our lives too much; the loopy parts are where Cziksentmihalyi’s “flow”, creativity, mastery, and the most fulfilling kind of happiness lie. At the extreme, people organize their whole lives around “bucket lists” of arcy items that can be checked off, each with a discrete endpoint. And we don’t properly recognize that the room for learning is much greater when we’re in loops; schools, instead of teaching us to put connections together and ruminate, encourage us to memorize and regurgitate. Very arcy, “a singular path through a system that someone else previously explored.”
jpitz 14y ago
Loops immediately brought to mind http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OODA_loop http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OODA_loop
gbog 14y ago
Can we please stop using these JavaScripts slide page tricks, it is completely broken, I can't even read the page on my phone.

66 points by dwynings 14y ago

Another great post by you guys. Love the distinction between Loops and Arcs, though I'd love a specific example of Arc -> Loop -> Arc as a primary game flow. Most RPG games (like Mass Effect) go Arc -> Arc -> Arc, with Loops typically being regulated to side quests or objectives (like resource harvesting). In RTS games, the entire game is Loop -> Loop -> Loop as far as gameplay is concerned, and then the story itself is an Arc.

mbel 14y ago
Well, he gave quite specific example of `sandwich design': "This is your typical cutscene-gameplay-cutescene sandwich." Where cutscenes are arcs as player is to watch them once and actual gameplay is build by looped actions. I haven't played Mass Effect, but I guess this is an example of such design; in all cRPG games gameplay is kind of loop build of schemes like talking to/fighting with NPC, walking around and collecting items.

teamonkey 14y ago

There are some very strong reasons why arcs dominate and they're not all financial. 1) People get bored and need change. This can be partly satisfied by a larger loop that varies the gameplay mechanics, one method being "exotic gameplay" (such as bonus levels). 2) People need closure and the feeling that they've finished a task. A visibly endless task with no goal is a thankless task. 3) People get satisfaction in closed cause-and-effect chains (and have limited working memory space to process them), by which I mean converting a short string of events into a story.

chii 14y ago
"2) People need closure and the feeling that they've finished a task. A visibly endless task with no goal is a thankless task." This is not necessarily true. Its only true if the game frames itself to be a task to be completed (for fun). There are (very few) games that are called "sandbox" games, where there are no ending. The player decides what their goal (if any) is. An example of such a game is Eve online, the sims, and simcity.
- philwelch 14y ago
  Classic games like Tetris or Missile Command are also loops, albeit loops that one inevitably fails to complete.
- teamonkey 14y ago
  Flow theory[1] dictates that there has to be clear goals set in place, whether they are set by the game or player. More than this, these goals need to challenge the player while still being achievable. The problem is that when playing a game not everyone can (or wants to) set their own goals in this way. It takes a small amount of persistence and discipline, which might not be appropriate for a game that is supposed to be played as a leisure activity. [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flow_%28psychology%29#Conditions_for_flow http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flow_%28psychology%29#Condition...

jacobolus 14y ago

I really like this metaphor. I think one of the biggest problems with the way we spend our modern lives is that we’ve made the payoffs at the ends of “arcy” activities (media “consumption”, tweeting and snapshotting our daily lives, buying food from restaurants instead of hunting or even cooking, buying clothes instead of making them, buying houses instead of building them, hiring mechanics and plumbers instead of fixing our own things, hiring landscapers instead of growing our own gardens) so incredibly stimulating that we lose patience for “loopy” activities. Up to a certain point, we get more “pleasure” out of just enjoying the fruits of mass production and other people’s labor. But we run a real danger of forcing the loopy parts out of our lives too much; the loopy parts are where Cziksentmihalyi’s “flow”, creativity, mastery, and the most fulfilling kind of happiness lie. At the extreme, people organize their whole lives around “bucket lists” of arcy items that can be checked off, each with a discrete endpoint. And we don’t properly recognize that the room for learning is much greater when we’re in loops; schools, instead of teaching us to put connections together and ruminate, encourage us to memorize and regurgitate. Very arcy, “a singular path through a system that someone else previously explored.”

jpitz 14y ago

Loops immediately brought to mind http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OODA_loop http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OODA_loop

gbog 14y ago

Can we please stop using these JavaScripts slide page tricks, it is completely broken, I can't even read the page on my phone.