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> If people were paid fairly, most productions would be untenable. A similar argument was used in favor of perpetuating slavery prior to the civil war. > Peop

> If people were paid fairly, most productions would be untenable. A similar argument was used in favor of perpetuating slavery prior to the civil war. > People just have to accept that means the industry will shrink dramatically. So many things will just never get made. I've accepted that. Now let's pay people fairly for their time and skill. > That also means far fewer people will get to become animators. They’ll have to find some other job as competition for the jobs that remain will be sky high. The online independent animator community is thriving. If people create something that has appeal, they are able to at least partially subsist from subscriptions and donations. I contribute to several animators' Patreon accounts (though Patreon takes far too much out of it). If there isn't enough appeal, well... I'm sorry. Either everyone agrees to a fair wage based on these market conditions, independent efforts raise money through crowdsourcing, or... people find other ways to sustain themselves. That's just a healthy economy in action.

pubby 3y ago
Slavery ended as industrialized agriculture was taking off. While farmers are paid better now, there are a lot fewer of them. Perhaps we will see the same with animation; there will be a few well-paid and highly-skilled artists that are automating with a bunch of AI. I doubt that will be the solution to equality though.
- wahnfrieden 3y ago
  US and other first world countries such as S.Korea still have slave labor agriculture, it's a fact and it's still economical
- Aeolun 3y ago
  It does not seem outside the bounds of reason that all the ‘in-between’ stuff gets done with AI. At that point you only still need your keyframes. Doesn’t really make things much cheaper because the people drawing those in-between frames are already paid peanuts :/
archgoon 3y ago
Why are you accusing the parent poster, who mostly agrees with you, of making an argument comparable to perpetuating slavery?
idopmstuff 3y ago
>> If people were paid fairly, most productions would be untenable. >A similar argument was used in favor of perpetuating slavery prior to the civil war. I suspect the end result here will actually be fairly comparable to post-slavery agriculture, in that technology will eliminate a lot of these jobs. Tough to imagine that GenAI doesn't have an enormous impact on anime over the next few years.
- johnnyanmac 3y ago
  >Tough to imagine that GenAI doesn't have an enormous impact on anime over the next few years. It depends a lot on the culture there. 1) there are actual labor laws in Japan, so they can't just cut off 90% of their workforce at the snap of the finger 2) there is a much stronger culture of conformity in Japan. So it is much easier to shame a company when getting negative PR in Japan and those complaints can overcome raw profits. Also, tech wise AI is at least 5 years out from anything animated. What I've seen in motion so far is extremely crude.
  - Ferret7446 3y ago
    > Also, tech wise AI is at least 5 years out from anything animated. What I've seen in motion so far is extremely crude. I... think you are overestimating that by a lot. We went from nothing to AlphaGo to ChatGPT to Midjourney et al within a few years, with the timespan between each shortening.
    - idopmstuff 3y ago
      Yeah, the stuff Runway has been coming out with absolutely blows my mind. Can't wait to see what it looks like by the end of this year, let alone five.
nvm0n2 3y ago
How is telling people to live off donations not just an end run around your wage rules? They don't apply if you're self employed?
- soulofmischief 3y ago
  My wage rules? You think fairly compensated labor is just some idea I came up with? Most of the people whom I contribute to are able to work full-time on their passions through donations and make more than they would if they were traditionally employed.
  - mlrtime 3y ago
    There is no such thing as a fair wage, fair is subjective and this can be debated for hours by academics. What we have (in some countries) is: 1) Minimum wage: defined as the least amount legal to pay someone. 2) Living wage: loosely defined as the wage needed for minimum living standards for a given region 3) Market wage: What the market determines your value is worth based on supply/demand. None of these are "fair" and they aren't usualy the same but sometimes can be.
    - soulofmischief 3y ago
      > There is no such thing as a fair wage Bollocks. A fair wage is a wage which is agreed upon by employee and employer, and is livable according to local cost of living. Let's not get into a semantic argument.
      - gruez 3y ago
        That's your definition of a "fair wage". The parent's point is that it's subjective and others might disagree. For instance I've seen people take the marxist position that software engineers earning 6 figures isn't "fair" because the company is making even more money from their labor and that amount is effectively being stolen from them.
        3y ago

pubby 3y ago

Slavery ended as industrialized agriculture was taking off. While farmers are paid better now, there are a lot fewer of them. Perhaps we will see the same with animation; there will be a few well-paid and highly-skilled artists that are automating with a bunch of AI. I doubt that will be the solution to equality though.

wahnfrieden 3y ago
US and other first world countries such as S.Korea still have slave labor agriculture, it's a fact and it's still economical
Aeolun 3y ago
It does not seem outside the bounds of reason that all the ‘in-between’ stuff gets done with AI. At that point you only still need your keyframes. Doesn’t really make things much cheaper because the people drawing those in-between frames are already paid peanuts :/

archgoon 3y ago

Why are you accusing the parent poster, who mostly agrees with you, of making an argument comparable to perpetuating slavery?

idopmstuff 3y ago

>> If people were paid fairly, most productions would be untenable. >A similar argument was used in favor of perpetuating slavery prior to the civil war. I suspect the end result here will actually be fairly comparable to post-slavery agriculture, in that technology will eliminate a lot of these jobs. Tough to imagine that GenAI doesn't have an enormous impact on anime over the next few years.

johnnyanmac 3y ago
>Tough to imagine that GenAI doesn't have an enormous impact on anime over the next few years. It depends a lot on the culture there. 1) there are actual labor laws in Japan, so they can't just cut off 90% of their workforce at the snap of the finger 2) there is a much stronger culture of conformity in Japan. So it is much easier to shame a company when getting negative PR in Japan and those complaints can overcome raw profits. Also, tech wise AI is at least 5 years out from anything animated. What I've seen in motion so far is extremely crude.
- Ferret7446 3y ago
  > Also, tech wise AI is at least 5 years out from anything animated. What I've seen in motion so far is extremely crude. I... think you are overestimating that by a lot. We went from nothing to AlphaGo to ChatGPT to Midjourney et al within a few years, with the timespan between each shortening.
  - idopmstuff 3y ago
    Yeah, the stuff Runway has been coming out with absolutely blows my mind. Can't wait to see what it looks like by the end of this year, let alone five.

nvm0n2 3y ago

How is telling people to live off donations not just an end run around your wage rules? They don't apply if you're self employed?

soulofmischief 3y ago
My wage rules? You think fairly compensated labor is just some idea I came up with? Most of the people whom I contribute to are able to work full-time on their passions through donations and make more than they would if they were traditionally employed.
- mlrtime 3y ago
  There is no such thing as a fair wage, fair is subjective and this can be debated for hours by academics. What we have (in some countries) is: 1) Minimum wage: defined as the least amount legal to pay someone. 2) Living wage: loosely defined as the wage needed for minimum living standards for a given region 3) Market wage: What the market determines your value is worth based on supply/demand. None of these are "fair" and they aren't usualy the same but sometimes can be.
  - soulofmischief 3y ago
    > There is no such thing as a fair wage Bollocks. A fair wage is a wage which is agreed upon by employee and employer, and is livable according to local cost of living. Let's not get into a semantic argument.
    - gruez 3y ago
      That's your definition of a "fair wage". The parent's point is that it's subjective and others might disagree. For instance I've seen people take the marxist position that software engineers earning 6 figures isn't "fair" because the company is making even more money from their labor and that amount is effectively being stolen from them.
      - 3y ago