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When the alternative is starving, they do. The problem isn't children being allowed to work in mines. The problem is the lack of superior alternatives availab

When the alternative is starving, they do. The problem isn't children being allowed to work in mines. The problem is the lack of superior alternatives available to them.

kelnos 3y ago
Right, and in this case, the superior alternative should be an animator who makes a decent living. Sometimes, unfortunately, we have to legislate the superior alternative into existence. I'm not certain that's a good or necessary move in this particular case (I doubt there are many if any animators where their choice is to be an animator for low wages, or starve and live on the streets), but it's an option. I always thought it weird that we have minimum wage levels for hourly workers, but once you're salaried, you work however many hours your employer wants, or you get marginalized or fired. For many HNers that's not that big a deal, as our effective hourly wage still ends up to be many hundreds of dollars. But there are salaried workers down at the low end who are required to work quite a bit more than the 40 hours a week their "nominal" hourly wage might be calculated off of, and some of those people end up well below what a minimum wage would be for hourly workers.
- a_t48 3y ago
  This is what salary exemption in CA is for, in my understanding. Unless you're making more than twice minimum wage overtime must be paid, even if salaried. The bar may be even higher for certain professions (like software!) (Caveat that more of the world exists than CA)
- filoleg 3y ago
  > Right, and in this case, the superior alternative should be an animator who makes a decent living. I mean, i am not entirely sure about animation, but there is a “superior” alternative to gamedev, and people still willingly choose it over being a software dev elsewhere. Despite gamedev having way worse WLB and worse pay. Most of gamedevs can easily just become SWEs at a tech company, get paid much more, work much less, and on any numerical metric do better. And many of them intentionally choose not to. And it isn’t for the lack of skill at all. If it was just due to the lack of superior alternatives, then we wouldn’t see this situation occurring in the gamedev/swe world.
- Aeolun 3y ago
  > I always thought it weird that we have minimum wage levels for hourly workers, but once you're salaried, you work however many hours your employer wants, or you get marginalized or fired. This isn’t actually true in Japan though, and why so many people actually favor all the overwork. If you are salaried, and not on a specific kind of contract (my contract includes up to 45 hours of overwork), all your overwork is paid by the hour, with higher multipliers for late night work. Which is how people effectively double their salary.
- oatmeal1 3y ago
  > Sometimes, unfortunately, we have to legislate the superior alternative into existence. There is nothing we have to do. And are there no animators currently making a decent living? Legislating a minimum wage does not give the animators extra leverage. The higher it is, the more employers will invest into technology to replace them. There are all kinds of ways to improve the lot of the disadvantaged. The minimum wage is one of the worst ways to do so.
dymk 3y ago
I promise you children do not yearn for mines even when they're starving. At most, they'll begrudgingly enter the mines, and some might not come back.

When the alternative is starving, they do. The problem isn't children being allowed to work in mines. The problem is the lack of superior alternatives available to them.

kelnos 3y ago

Right, and in this case, the superior alternative should be an animator who makes a decent living. Sometimes, unfortunately, we have to legislate the superior alternative into existence. I'm not certain that's a good or necessary move in this particular case (I doubt there are many if any animators where their choice is to be an animator for low wages, or starve and live on the streets), but it's an option. I always thought it weird that we have minimum wage levels for hourly workers, but once you're salaried, you work however many hours your employer wants, or you get marginalized or fired. For many HNers that's not that big a deal, as our effective hourly wage still ends up to be many hundreds of dollars. But there are salaried workers down at the low end who are required to work quite a bit more than the 40 hours a week their "nominal" hourly wage might be calculated off of, and some of those people end up well below what a minimum wage would be for hourly workers.

a_t48 3y ago
This is what salary exemption in CA is for, in my understanding. Unless you're making more than twice minimum wage overtime must be paid, even if salaried. The bar may be even higher for certain professions (like software!) (Caveat that more of the world exists than CA)
filoleg 3y ago
> Right, and in this case, the superior alternative should be an animator who makes a decent living. I mean, i am not entirely sure about animation, but there is a “superior” alternative to gamedev, and people still willingly choose it over being a software dev elsewhere. Despite gamedev having way worse WLB and worse pay. Most of gamedevs can easily just become SWEs at a tech company, get paid much more, work much less, and on any numerical metric do better. And many of them intentionally choose not to. And it isn’t for the lack of skill at all. If it was just due to the lack of superior alternatives, then we wouldn’t see this situation occurring in the gamedev/swe world.
Aeolun 3y ago
> I always thought it weird that we have minimum wage levels for hourly workers, but once you're salaried, you work however many hours your employer wants, or you get marginalized or fired. This isn’t actually true in Japan though, and why so many people actually favor all the overwork. If you are salaried, and not on a specific kind of contract (my contract includes up to 45 hours of overwork), all your overwork is paid by the hour, with higher multipliers for late night work. Which is how people effectively double their salary.
oatmeal1 3y ago
> Sometimes, unfortunately, we have to legislate the superior alternative into existence. There is nothing we have to do. And are there no animators currently making a decent living? Legislating a minimum wage does not give the animators extra leverage. The higher it is, the more employers will invest into technology to replace them. There are all kinds of ways to improve the lot of the disadvantaged. The minimum wage is one of the worst ways to do so.

dymk 3y ago

I promise you children do not yearn for mines even when they're starving. At most, they'll begrudgingly enter the mines, and some might not come back.