7 ms·

> App Store forbids third-party browser engines Mozilla is justified in challenging it, but I don't know if they want to go pulling that thread. Safari's mono

> App Store forbids third-party browser engines Mozilla is justified in challenging it, but I don't know if they want to go pulling that thread. Safari's monopoly on iOS devices is the only reason a sizable number of developers care about non-Chrome support. Currently, they have to. If the message to users becomes "broken feature is not broken on Chrome" we're on the road to monopolyville. And then Google really doesn't need consensus when it creates new web standards. The status quo is all sorts of messed up, but it could be worse. Hopefully I'm wrong about this.

bitpush 3y ago
> Safari's monopoly on iOS devices is the only reason a sizable number of developers care about non-Chrome support. Sounds like you like monopoly.
- gleenn 3y ago
  I don't think that's charitable. They are stating that iOS enforcing the second browser to exist makes at least some space for the third to exist and preventing Chrome from completely taking over.
  - sangnoir 3y ago
    At the expense of Firefox. I'm not surprised that Mozilla would not cheer Safari on because Apple doesn't care for Mozilla's mission.
- yjftsjthsd-h 3y ago
  If a small monopoly prevents a large monopoly, it might be the lesser evil.
- girvo 3y ago
  Two is greater than one.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
petesergeant 3y ago
Came to say the same thing. Safari and the inability to replace it with Chrome on iOS is the only thing stopping the complete dominance of Chrome, for better or for worse
pjmlp 3y ago
The day it is free reign on iOS, I am betting plenty of people will install Chrome, basically all PC owners whose only Apple device is an iPhone.
- madeofpalk 3y ago
  Lots of people already install Chrome on iOS. I don't think people actually care about browser engines. Maybe they have a notion of 'this website only works on foo browser', but im doubtful that happens a lot on the modern internet. People already install and use Chrome on iOS because they want the non-rendering engine features, like syncing bookmarks etc.
  - pjmlp 3y ago
    That is not Chrome, rather a Safari skin, which matters from Web developer point of view, where Google has turned the Web into ChromeOS.
- ksec 3y ago
  I submitted it [1], Desktop Browser Market Share Worldwide – December 2023. Both Firefox and Chrome saw a sharp increase in December. Edit: Looking further into it, turns out MacOS system market share has a sharp decline in December for whatever reason. [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38833412 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38833412 [2] https://gs.statcounter.com/os-market-share/desktop/worldwide#monthly-202211-202312 https://gs.statcounter.com/os-market-share/desktop/worldwide...
  - pjmlp 3y ago
    3.36% hardly matters for most Web agencies, and is in danger zone for many government guidelines.
- jwells89 3y ago
  And those who don’t install Chrome on their own will be pushed to do so by aggressive marketing by Google and by devs who want to test against a single browser engine only. Bits will be stolen away by similar efforts from other Chrome-clone browser vendors (MS chiefly). It would be a pleasant surprise if Firefox for iOS got a marketshare bump large enough to move the needle, but I wouldn’t bet on it because the odds are against that happening.
commoner 3y ago
Of course it's in Mozilla's interest to challenge Safari's Apple-imposed monopoly on iOS. Firefox does not benefit from being suppressed on iOS just because Chrome is also suppressed on iOS. Removing Apple's restrictions that prevent Firefox from implementing Gecko and Gecko-based WebExtensions (especially ad blockers) can only increase Firefox's market share on iOS. Those new iOS Firefox users would then be encouraged to adopt Firefox on their desktop computers, because they would finally be able to sync desktop Firefox with an adblock-enabled Firefox on iOS.
- rollcat 3y ago
  Disclaimer: I use Firefox on iOS, macOS, Linux, and OpenBSD. > Those new iOS Firefox users would then be encouraged to adopt Firefox on their desktop computers, because they would finally be able to sync desktop Firefox with an adblock-enabled Firefox on iOS. That's not true. People don't care about adblock-enabled Firefox on iOS, because they don't care about Firefox whatsoever. And they don't care about Firefox whatsoever because Mozilla doesn't care - they seem to be focused on just about anything (mostly CEO bonuses), except actually improving the browser to be a competitive product. I use Firefox as my daily driver, and believe me - the temptation to just switch to Chrome is there, every day. Chrome is not only a better browser, the incompatibilities and annoyances (resulting from its de-facto monopoly) are enough to drive people away from Firefox. The only reason why Firefox still exists, is because Google keeps paying Mozilla money to be their default search engine - and it remains in Google's best interest, it's their insurance card in a possible antitrust case. > Of course it's in Mozilla's interest to challenge Safari's Apple-imposed monopoly on iOS. Of course it is in their interest - because they are Google's sock-puppet. Personally, I do hope that Apple's rules for iOS web engines get challenged - but only as a followup to an antitrust case vs Google, ideally with an outcome of separating the browser from the adtech company.
  - danShumway 3y ago
    > That's not true. People don't care about adblock-enabled Firefox on iOS, because they don't care about Firefox whatsoever. And they don't care about Firefox whatsoever because Mozilla doesn't care - they seem to be focused on just about anything (mostly CEO bonuses), except actually improving the browser to be a competitive product. Firefox has seen meaningful improvement over the 2023 and (imo) is competitive with both Safari and Chrome and out-delivers both browsers on some metrics. To say that Mozilla does not care about Firefox is to say that the entire browser ecosystem is so stunted that an organization of Mozilla's size can keep pace with two of the richest companies on the planet while actively trying to focus their attention elsewhere. It's nonsense. In 2023, Firefox finally shipped fully offline translation support (a feature that literally no other browser has), they (finally) brought back full extension support to mobile devices, Linux support on Wayland improved, Manifest V3 for Firefox is now shipping (with blocking web request support) and it's actually pretty good, voice commands are now supported on Mac, Firefox managed to start surpassing Chrome's speed on Speedometer (for all the test's flaws, this is still an achievement). PDF editing launched, picture-in-picture view got a redesign. I'm sure there's more that I'm forgetting I know that plenty of people would have preferred that Mozilla not spend so much time and attention on rewriting parts of mobile Firefox, but even there it's silly to argue that they significantly rewrote parts of mobile Firefox because they're not focused on Firefox. This claim comes up all the time and I genuinely don't understand how people can possibly believe this. You think that Firefox would be competitive with Chrome and Safari if Mozilla didn't care about it? Is the idea here that Chrome and Safari engineers are so lazy that Mozilla can keep pace with them by doing nothing?
Aachen 3y ago
> Safari's monopoly on iOS devices is the only reason a sizable number of developers care about non-Chrome support The reason I make my websites work in Firefox is really not because I need to make it work for Safari. Firefox usually works out of the box, but even if it didn't, Safari being a neglected platform that always needs extra work really wouldn't make me feel like putting in yet more work on another tech stack
danShumway 3y ago
> Mozilla is justified in challenging it, but I don't know if they want to go pulling that thread. If they didn't, Safari would be used as an excuse to ignore their other complaints from other companies, because the truth is that Mozilla is right about Apple's behavior and it would be hypocritical for them to complain about Google/Microsoft without mentioning Apple. ---- I also want to (respectfully) push back somewhat hard and bluntly against this idea in general. I'm really tired of the status quo defense because the status quo is not headed in a positive direction and is not going to change unless bold moves happen, and nobody making the status quo defense for Apple seems to have any plans on how the status quo is going to get better. Safari is not enough to stop Chrome's dominance on its own. And that status quo might not even be preserved in the long-term anyway because there's a nontrivial chance that browser engines get forced open in the EU at some point after the EU's app-store rules take effect. Here is the reality of the situation: we are currently closing out on a political administration that has shown a historic level of willingness to pursue antitrust against tech companies. People really haven't grasped just how unbelievably friendly the Biden admin is to antitrust in a way that is not common for US presidents. Maybe that administration will continue for 4 more years, and maybe it won't. But taking that uncertainty into account, this is likely one of the best opportunities presented since the early Windows antitrust cases to argue for actual intervention on Google/Apple/Microsoft. The intersection of an administration that is extremely open to antitrust in comparison to other presidential admins, along with shifting consumer sentiment against big tech, combined with Apple facing pressure on multiple fronts around iOS, combined with Google getting ready to hobble ad blockers in June makes this a great time to make these arguments and to push hard for changing the status quo. Is it a little risky? Yes. But waiting longer is not going to make the situation better, it's only going to mean that Firefox is less relevant when it makes its case, that the administration has more chance to roll over, that Mozilla can't seize on public sentiment. There is never going to be a point where it's an easy 100% win for Mozilla to make this case, and if they don't make this case, they will eventually be driven out of the market entirely. I fully support them firing all cylinders at everybody, Apple included. It only makes their case stronger. If we're worried about Chrome dominance if iOS is opened up, the way to deal with that problem is to regulate Google. This is the best time to make that case. This is not the time for us to hem and haw about what could happen if Apple isn't allowed to be anti-competitive. If we wait, it will only become harder to deal with Chrome.

bitpush 3y ago

> Safari's monopoly on iOS devices is the only reason a sizable number of developers care about non-Chrome support. Sounds like you like monopoly.

gleenn 3y ago
I don't think that's charitable. They are stating that iOS enforcing the second browser to exist makes at least some space for the third to exist and preventing Chrome from completely taking over.
- sangnoir 3y ago
  At the expense of Firefox. I'm not surprised that Mozilla would not cheer Safari on because Apple doesn't care for Mozilla's mission.
yjftsjthsd-h 3y ago
If a small monopoly prevents a large monopoly, it might be the lesser evil.
girvo 3y ago
Two is greater than one.
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]

petesergeant 3y ago

Came to say the same thing. Safari and the inability to replace it with Chrome on iOS is the only thing stopping the complete dominance of Chrome, for better or for worse

pjmlp 3y ago

The day it is free reign on iOS, I am betting plenty of people will install Chrome, basically all PC owners whose only Apple device is an iPhone.

madeofpalk 3y ago
Lots of people already install Chrome on iOS. I don't think people actually care about browser engines. Maybe they have a notion of 'this website only works on foo browser', but im doubtful that happens a lot on the modern internet. People already install and use Chrome on iOS because they want the non-rendering engine features, like syncing bookmarks etc.
- pjmlp 3y ago
  That is not Chrome, rather a Safari skin, which matters from Web developer point of view, where Google has turned the Web into ChromeOS.
ksec 3y ago
I submitted it [1], Desktop Browser Market Share Worldwide – December 2023. Both Firefox and Chrome saw a sharp increase in December. Edit: Looking further into it, turns out MacOS system market share has a sharp decline in December for whatever reason. [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38833412 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38833412 [2] https://gs.statcounter.com/os-market-share/desktop/worldwide#monthly-202211-202312 https://gs.statcounter.com/os-market-share/desktop/worldwide...
- pjmlp 3y ago
  3.36% hardly matters for most Web agencies, and is in danger zone for many government guidelines.
jwells89 3y ago
And those who don’t install Chrome on their own will be pushed to do so by aggressive marketing by Google and by devs who want to test against a single browser engine only. Bits will be stolen away by similar efforts from other Chrome-clone browser vendors (MS chiefly). It would be a pleasant surprise if Firefox for iOS got a marketshare bump large enough to move the needle, but I wouldn’t bet on it because the odds are against that happening.

commoner 3y ago

Of course it's in Mozilla's interest to challenge Safari's Apple-imposed monopoly on iOS. Firefox does not benefit from being suppressed on iOS just because Chrome is also suppressed on iOS. Removing Apple's restrictions that prevent Firefox from implementing Gecko and Gecko-based WebExtensions (especially ad blockers) can only increase Firefox's market share on iOS. Those new iOS Firefox users would then be encouraged to adopt Firefox on their desktop computers, because they would finally be able to sync desktop Firefox with an adblock-enabled Firefox on iOS.

rollcat 3y ago
Disclaimer: I use Firefox on iOS, macOS, Linux, and OpenBSD. > Those new iOS Firefox users would then be encouraged to adopt Firefox on their desktop computers, because they would finally be able to sync desktop Firefox with an adblock-enabled Firefox on iOS. That's not true. People don't care about adblock-enabled Firefox on iOS, because they don't care about Firefox whatsoever. And they don't care about Firefox whatsoever because Mozilla doesn't care - they seem to be focused on just about anything (mostly CEO bonuses), except actually improving the browser to be a competitive product. I use Firefox as my daily driver, and believe me - the temptation to just switch to Chrome is there, every day. Chrome is not only a better browser, the incompatibilities and annoyances (resulting from its de-facto monopoly) are enough to drive people away from Firefox. The only reason why Firefox still exists, is because Google keeps paying Mozilla money to be their default search engine - and it remains in Google's best interest, it's their insurance card in a possible antitrust case. > Of course it's in Mozilla's interest to challenge Safari's Apple-imposed monopoly on iOS. Of course it is in their interest - because they are Google's sock-puppet. Personally, I do hope that Apple's rules for iOS web engines get challenged - but only as a followup to an antitrust case vs Google, ideally with an outcome of separating the browser from the adtech company.
- danShumway 3y ago
  > That's not true. People don't care about adblock-enabled Firefox on iOS, because they don't care about Firefox whatsoever. And they don't care about Firefox whatsoever because Mozilla doesn't care - they seem to be focused on just about anything (mostly CEO bonuses), except actually improving the browser to be a competitive product. Firefox has seen meaningful improvement over the 2023 and (imo) is competitive with both Safari and Chrome and out-delivers both browsers on some metrics. To say that Mozilla does not care about Firefox is to say that the entire browser ecosystem is so stunted that an organization of Mozilla's size can keep pace with two of the richest companies on the planet while actively trying to focus their attention elsewhere. It's nonsense. In 2023, Firefox finally shipped fully offline translation support (a feature that literally no other browser has), they (finally) brought back full extension support to mobile devices, Linux support on Wayland improved, Manifest V3 for Firefox is now shipping (with blocking web request support) and it's actually pretty good, voice commands are now supported on Mac, Firefox managed to start surpassing Chrome's speed on Speedometer (for all the test's flaws, this is still an achievement). PDF editing launched, picture-in-picture view got a redesign. I'm sure there's more that I'm forgetting I know that plenty of people would have preferred that Mozilla not spend so much time and attention on rewriting parts of mobile Firefox, but even there it's silly to argue that they significantly rewrote parts of mobile Firefox because they're not focused on Firefox. This claim comes up all the time and I genuinely don't understand how people can possibly believe this. You think that Firefox would be competitive with Chrome and Safari if Mozilla didn't care about it? Is the idea here that Chrome and Safari engineers are so lazy that Mozilla can keep pace with them by doing nothing?

Aachen 3y ago

> Safari's monopoly on iOS devices is the only reason a sizable number of developers care about non-Chrome support The reason I make my websites work in Firefox is really not because I need to make it work for Safari. Firefox usually works out of the box, but even if it didn't, Safari being a neglected platform that always needs extra work really wouldn't make me feel like putting in yet more work on another tech stack

danShumway 3y ago

> Mozilla is justified in challenging it, but I don't know if they want to go pulling that thread. If they didn't, Safari would be used as an excuse to ignore their other complaints from other companies, because the truth is that Mozilla is right about Apple's behavior and it would be hypocritical for them to complain about Google/Microsoft without mentioning Apple. ---- I also want to (respectfully) push back somewhat hard and bluntly against this idea in general. I'm really tired of the status quo defense because the status quo is not headed in a positive direction and is not going to change unless bold moves happen, and nobody making the status quo defense for Apple seems to have any plans on how the status quo is going to get better. Safari is not enough to stop Chrome's dominance on its own. And that status quo might not even be preserved in the long-term anyway because there's a nontrivial chance that browser engines get forced open in the EU at some point after the EU's app-store rules take effect. Here is the reality of the situation: we are currently closing out on a political administration that has shown a historic level of willingness to pursue antitrust against tech companies. People really haven't grasped just how unbelievably friendly the Biden admin is to antitrust in a way that is not common for US presidents. Maybe that administration will continue for 4 more years, and maybe it won't. But taking that uncertainty into account, this is likely one of the best opportunities presented since the early Windows antitrust cases to argue for actual intervention on Google/Apple/Microsoft. The intersection of an administration that is extremely open to antitrust in comparison to other presidential admins, along with shifting consumer sentiment against big tech, combined with Apple facing pressure on multiple fronts around iOS, combined with Google getting ready to hobble ad blockers in June makes this a great time to make these arguments and to push hard for changing the status quo. Is it a little risky? Yes. But waiting longer is not going to make the situation better, it's only going to mean that Firefox is less relevant when it makes its case, that the administration has more chance to roll over, that Mozilla can't seize on public sentiment. There is never going to be a point where it's an easy 100% win for Mozilla to make this case, and if they don't make this case, they will eventually be driven out of the market entirely. I fully support them firing all cylinders at everybody, Apple included. It only makes their case stronger. If we're worried about Chrome dominance if iOS is opened up, the way to deal with that problem is to regulate Google. This is the best time to make that case. This is not the time for us to hem and haw about what could happen if Apple isn't allowed to be anti-competitive. If we wait, it will only become harder to deal with Chrome.