4 ms·

Well they can always just not sell to the UK if it’s such a problem.

ben_w 3y ago
They may well just not operate in the UK, but it remains to be seen if anyone will speak openly about being given an order they're not supposed to reveal the existence of, even in cases where that order is to break a law passed by their own government without telling their own government.
pc86 3y ago
Whether or not that is a reasonable response is irrelevant to the fact that the law is, on its face, idiotic. How else would you frame requiring someone not bound by your laws to break the laws of their own country?
- bemusedthrow75 3y ago
  Trade in the UK and you are, in fact, bound by UK laws. That this regularly comes as a surprise to Americans is perhaps why the UK is so suspicious of US Big Tech firms.
  - ben_w 3y ago
    I agree with what you're saying; the problem is that it looks like the UK is trying to give itself the power to force companies to secretly break the laws of the nation the company is based in. Companies can make themselves the servants of two masters by operating in two jurisdictions with mutually incompatible laws, but they do so at their own peril. Similar discussion with different details comes up sometimes with e.g. "should Apple do business in China?", but (IMO) the UK isn't as important as China and (IMO) has less leverage to encourage companies to take that risk.
    - bemusedthrow75 3y ago
      While I think this particular piece of (proposed) law is nuts, I think it’s just a dark mirror of the kinds of laws that compel companies to operate as commercial cover for espionage or unofficial foreign policy and break the law in foreign countries where they operate. And if you think that the USA for example is not already quietly compelling subsidiaries of foreign firms to break the laws of their own home countries then I would suggest you consider why not.
      - ben_w 3y ago
        Good point, though bad example - the USA is kinda infamous for throwing their weight around like that. The UK… is run by people who still think the UK's natural place is to rule most of the world.
        bemusedthrow75 3y ago
        This is untrue. The current British government hold no beliefs in empire or British international superiority. They wouldn’t all have so much of their personal wealth stored and invested offshore if they did! Our government appears to feel deeply entitled, but is insular and defensive, not strident and bold. Nonetheless, I don’t think it is necessarily wrong to create a landscape of legal uncertainty for foreign Big Tech: why would any government not have laws saying “we welcome your business but you must understand that our laws are incompatible with some laws of your home country, and to continue to trade here you agree not to follow those home regulations?” Otherwise the most dominant country in the world simply exports its law through foreign business expansions. And I hate to break it to people but US law is not a strict subset of best practice.
        ben_w 3y ago
        > Our government appears to feel deeply entitled, but is insular and defensive, not strident and bold. Hm, you justified well, perhaps the current lot aren't quite as bad as the recent few governments from the same party. > Otherwise the most dominant country in the world simply exports its law through foreign business expansions. I think they do, at least a bit? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brussels_effect https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brussels_effect https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/California_effect https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/California_effect That said, I have for a while now felt that the internet messes with the pre-telecommunications concept of Westphalian sovereignty. No idea how that is going to end up. > And I hate to break it to people but US law is not a strict subset of best practice. As a Brit living in Germany, I absolutely agree. That was one of several reasons why I chose Berlin rather than the Bay, post-Brexit.
trinsic2 3y ago
We need to hit every company with a demand not to do business in the UK because of this, just like we did with SOPA. IF they government isn't going to be accountable then we have nothing left by to hold the companies accountable ourselves. I'll admit, this problem is so pervasive that literally every business we use in our society could potentially be a culprit :(

They may well just not operate in the UK, but it remains to be seen if anyone will speak openly about being given an order they're not supposed to reveal the existence of, even in cases where that order is to break a law passed by their own government without telling their own government.

pc86 3y ago

Whether or not that is a reasonable response is irrelevant to the fact that the law is, on its face, idiotic. How else would you frame requiring someone not bound by your laws to break the laws of their own country?

bemusedthrow75 3y ago
Trade in the UK and you are, in fact, bound by UK laws. That this regularly comes as a surprise to Americans is perhaps why the UK is so suspicious of US Big Tech firms.
- ben_w 3y ago
  I agree with what you're saying; the problem is that it looks like the UK is trying to give itself the power to force companies to secretly break the laws of the nation the company is based in. Companies can make themselves the servants of two masters by operating in two jurisdictions with mutually incompatible laws, but they do so at their own peril. Similar discussion with different details comes up sometimes with e.g. "should Apple do business in China?", but (IMO) the UK isn't as important as China and (IMO) has less leverage to encourage companies to take that risk.
  - bemusedthrow75 3y ago
    While I think this particular piece of (proposed) law is nuts, I think it’s just a dark mirror of the kinds of laws that compel companies to operate as commercial cover for espionage or unofficial foreign policy and break the law in foreign countries where they operate. And if you think that the USA for example is not already quietly compelling subsidiaries of foreign firms to break the laws of their own home countries then I would suggest you consider why not.
    - ben_w 3y ago
      Good point, though bad example - the USA is kinda infamous for throwing their weight around like that. The UK… is run by people who still think the UK's natural place is to rule most of the world.
      - bemusedthrow75 3y ago
        This is untrue. The current British government hold no beliefs in empire or British international superiority. They wouldn’t all have so much of their personal wealth stored and invested offshore if they did! Our government appears to feel deeply entitled, but is insular and defensive, not strident and bold. Nonetheless, I don’t think it is necessarily wrong to create a landscape of legal uncertainty for foreign Big Tech: why would any government not have laws saying “we welcome your business but you must understand that our laws are incompatible with some laws of your home country, and to continue to trade here you agree not to follow those home regulations?” Otherwise the most dominant country in the world simply exports its law through foreign business expansions. And I hate to break it to people but US law is not a strict subset of best practice.
        ben_w 3y ago
        > Our government appears to feel deeply entitled, but is insular and defensive, not strident and bold. Hm, you justified well, perhaps the current lot aren't quite as bad as the recent few governments from the same party. > Otherwise the most dominant country in the world simply exports its law through foreign business expansions. I think they do, at least a bit? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brussels_effect https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brussels_effect https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/California_effect https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/California_effect That said, I have for a while now felt that the internet messes with the pre-telecommunications concept of Westphalian sovereignty. No idea how that is going to end up. > And I hate to break it to people but US law is not a strict subset of best practice. As a Brit living in Germany, I absolutely agree. That was one of several reasons why I chose Berlin rather than the Bay, post-Brexit.

trinsic2 3y ago

We need to hit every company with a demand not to do business in the UK because of this, just like we did with SOPA. IF they government isn't going to be accountable then we have nothing left by to hold the companies accountable ourselves. I'll admit, this problem is so pervasive that literally every business we use in our society could potentially be a culprit :(