6 ms·

Police incompetence has a way of being disproportionately common depending on your race. Knowing definitively that is what is happening here without a lot more

Police incompetence has a way of being disproportionately common depending on your race. Knowing definitively that is what is happening here without a lot more context is difficult, but it's entirely possible this is textbook racism.

account-5 3y ago
But as you say, based in the information provided that conclusion is speculative at best. The sensible conclusion based on the information provided is incompetence. I think hanlons razor is applicable here
- cbsmith 3y ago
  Yes, I do not think one can draw conclusions. However, much as one might wish to apply Hanlon's razor, Occam's razor also applies, and from a lot of people's perspective it cuts towards racism.
  - account-5 3y ago
    But surely the fewest assumptions here points to incompetence? Or more kindly a lack of knowledge about the way the fraud was commited? Based on the information provided I'd side with belligerent incompetence. Based on the information would you conclude it was racist if the accused person was white? Would you conclude it was racist if the cop was also a first nation/aboriginal? I doubt it. What would your conclusion be then?
    - michael1999 3y ago
      A little bit of column A, and a little bit of column B. Remote postings don't get star officers. And the RCMP has a famously ugly history with the natives of Western Canada. And some officers at a remote detachment might feel freer to act against some than others. What do you think the RCMP was even for?
      - mlinhares 3y ago
        Why not both, right?
      - account-5 3y ago
        What parts in those columns (I'm on mobile and only have one column, do you mean paragraphs?) show this was racist? I fully accept historical injustices occurred, and the possibility that remote places might not attract "star" officers and maybe that some remote officers could feel that a remote posting is an opportunity to enact their racist desires. But even if these are true it doesn't make this interaction racist. > What do you think the RCMP was even for? To police their communities? Or, based on your preceeding sentences are you suggesting that the RCMP's purpose is racism?
        orwin 3y ago
        To protect the 'common man' from indigenous tribes at the borders. I think originally it's a military Corp designed to protect settlers.
        account-5 3y ago
        TIL. Not being Canadian I didn't know this.
        wasimanitoba 3y ago
        That isn't a very accurate characterization. At the time, there was no significant population of settlers in the area. Most people were either fully or at least partly Indigenous like the Metis. The goal was to protect First Nations from American settlers and prevent violence between the two which would trigger US military intervention. This occurred in the wake of the Cypress Hills Massacre: > The Cypress Hills Massacre occurred on June 1, 1873 [...]. It involved a group of American [...] hunters, and a camp of Assiniboine people. [...] The Cypress Hills Massacre prompted the Canadian government to accelerate the recruitment and deployment of the newly formed North-West Mounted Police. > [Canadian Prime Minister John A.] MacDonald's principal fear was that the activities of American traders such as the Cypress Hills Massacre would lead to the First Nations peoples killing the American traders, which would lead to the United States military being deployed into the NWT to protect the lives of American citizens on the grounds that Canada was unable to maintain law and order in the region. > The creation of the police force also had a political motive. The investigation into the massacre was to ensure that First Nations in the area were able to trust the Canadian government. The investigation would require international cooperation of two federal governments, and the North-West Mounted Police would take measures to make examples out of international criminals. Although ultimately no prosecution took place, the willingness to seek justice for any Canadian contributed to the establishment of peace between the NWMP and First Nations.[9] Establishing trust and security with the First Nations was a key motivation: > The creation of the police force also had a political motive. The investigation into the massacre was to ensure that First Nations in the area were able to trust the Canadian government. The investigation would require international cooperation of two federal governments, and the North-West Mounted Police would take measures to make examples out of international criminals. Although ultimately no prosecution took place, the willingness to seek justice for any Canadian contributed to the establishment of peace between the NWMP and First Nations.
    - cbsmith 3y ago
      > But surely the fewest assumptions here points to incompetence? Don't call me Shirley. ;-) As I said, that's very much a matter of perspective about which is more prevalent or more likely to be prevalent in the RCMP: incompetence or racism. If you include the context of the RCMP's history, racism does indeed seem more prevalent. > Based on the information would you conclude it was racist if the accused person was white? Would you conclude it was racist if the cop was also a first nation/aboriginal? I doubt it. What would your conclusion be then? I said I don't think one can draw a conclusion from the information provided, so I'm not sure why you are asking these questions. No, nothing you said would lead me to draw a conclusion.
- mikeravkine 3y ago
  The razor doesn't apply to the police.
  - account-5 3y ago
    Interesting. Why not?
- verbify 3y ago
  Hanlon's razor is "never attribute to malice that which could be attributed to stupidity". However racism itself might be stupidity and not malice - much of everyday racism isn't the malicious KKK kind, it's much more similar to stupidity.
  - account-5 3y ago
    So if this interaction was either down to malice or stupidity it's racist? Seems like a neat tautology...
    - cbsmith 3y ago
      It's less a "neat tautology" and more a demonstration that Hanlon's razor isn't as useful in this situation one might think.
      - account-5 3y ago
        It doesn't. It's an attempt to make both sides of hanlons razor equal racism with no proof that either side is such. Stupidity = racism Malice = racism
        cbsmith 3y ago
        Sigh. No, it doesn't mean that both sides of Hanlon's razor equal racism. It does mean that Hanlon's razor doesn't rule out racism. Hanlon's razor isn't about proof. It's about recognizing that one often projects intent onto circumstances where none exists. While racism can fuel malice, it is entirely possible for racism to exist without any malice.
        account-5 3y ago
        We'll have to agree to disagree on your first point. Though... > Hanlon's razor isn't about proof. It's about recognizing that one often projects intent onto circumstances where none exists. Exactly. That is my point. I'm not denying that racism can exist with or without malice, though I'd argue intent has to play a part. My point is based on the information from the article you cannot determine the interaction was racist and calling it so is projecting an intention on it that you cannot say exists.
- andreareina 3y ago
  Halon's razor applies to the totality of the evidence, not just instance by instance. If you have a pattern of "incompetence" when dealing with First Nations issues that doesn't arise when not, that's really no longer adequately explained by incompetence.
  - account-5 3y ago
    Have we established a pattern of behaviour for this particular officer in this regard?
    - cbsmith 3y ago
      No, we haven't. Could be both a fair minded and competent officer for all we know.

account-5 3y ago

But as you say, based in the information provided that conclusion is speculative at best. The sensible conclusion based on the information provided is incompetence. I think hanlons razor is applicable here

cbsmith 3y ago
Yes, I do not think one can draw conclusions. However, much as one might wish to apply Hanlon's razor, Occam's razor also applies, and from a lot of people's perspective it cuts towards racism.
- account-5 3y ago
  But surely the fewest assumptions here points to incompetence? Or more kindly a lack of knowledge about the way the fraud was commited? Based on the information provided I'd side with belligerent incompetence. Based on the information would you conclude it was racist if the accused person was white? Would you conclude it was racist if the cop was also a first nation/aboriginal? I doubt it. What would your conclusion be then?
  - michael1999 3y ago
    A little bit of column A, and a little bit of column B. Remote postings don't get star officers. And the RCMP has a famously ugly history with the natives of Western Canada. And some officers at a remote detachment might feel freer to act against some than others. What do you think the RCMP was even for?
    - mlinhares 3y ago
      Why not both, right?
    - account-5 3y ago
      What parts in those columns (I'm on mobile and only have one column, do you mean paragraphs?) show this was racist? I fully accept historical injustices occurred, and the possibility that remote places might not attract "star" officers and maybe that some remote officers could feel that a remote posting is an opportunity to enact their racist desires. But even if these are true it doesn't make this interaction racist. > What do you think the RCMP was even for? To police their communities? Or, based on your preceeding sentences are you suggesting that the RCMP's purpose is racism?
      - orwin 3y ago
        To protect the 'common man' from indigenous tribes at the borders. I think originally it's a military Corp designed to protect settlers.
        account-5 3y ago
        TIL. Not being Canadian I didn't know this.
        wasimanitoba 3y ago
        That isn't a very accurate characterization. At the time, there was no significant population of settlers in the area. Most people were either fully or at least partly Indigenous like the Metis. The goal was to protect First Nations from American settlers and prevent violence between the two which would trigger US military intervention. This occurred in the wake of the Cypress Hills Massacre: > The Cypress Hills Massacre occurred on June 1, 1873 [...]. It involved a group of American [...] hunters, and a camp of Assiniboine people. [...] The Cypress Hills Massacre prompted the Canadian government to accelerate the recruitment and deployment of the newly formed North-West Mounted Police. > [Canadian Prime Minister John A.] MacDonald's principal fear was that the activities of American traders such as the Cypress Hills Massacre would lead to the First Nations peoples killing the American traders, which would lead to the United States military being deployed into the NWT to protect the lives of American citizens on the grounds that Canada was unable to maintain law and order in the region. > The creation of the police force also had a political motive. The investigation into the massacre was to ensure that First Nations in the area were able to trust the Canadian government. The investigation would require international cooperation of two federal governments, and the North-West Mounted Police would take measures to make examples out of international criminals. Although ultimately no prosecution took place, the willingness to seek justice for any Canadian contributed to the establishment of peace between the NWMP and First Nations.[9] Establishing trust and security with the First Nations was a key motivation: > The creation of the police force also had a political motive. The investigation into the massacre was to ensure that First Nations in the area were able to trust the Canadian government. The investigation would require international cooperation of two federal governments, and the North-West Mounted Police would take measures to make examples out of international criminals. Although ultimately no prosecution took place, the willingness to seek justice for any Canadian contributed to the establishment of peace between the NWMP and First Nations.
  - cbsmith 3y ago
    > But surely the fewest assumptions here points to incompetence? Don't call me Shirley. ;-) As I said, that's very much a matter of perspective about which is more prevalent or more likely to be prevalent in the RCMP: incompetence or racism. If you include the context of the RCMP's history, racism does indeed seem more prevalent. > Based on the information would you conclude it was racist if the accused person was white? Would you conclude it was racist if the cop was also a first nation/aboriginal? I doubt it. What would your conclusion be then? I said I don't think one can draw a conclusion from the information provided, so I'm not sure why you are asking these questions. No, nothing you said would lead me to draw a conclusion.
mikeravkine 3y ago
The razor doesn't apply to the police.
- account-5 3y ago
  Interesting. Why not?
verbify 3y ago
Hanlon's razor is "never attribute to malice that which could be attributed to stupidity". However racism itself might be stupidity and not malice - much of everyday racism isn't the malicious KKK kind, it's much more similar to stupidity.
- account-5 3y ago
  So if this interaction was either down to malice or stupidity it's racist? Seems like a neat tautology...
  - cbsmith 3y ago
    It's less a "neat tautology" and more a demonstration that Hanlon's razor isn't as useful in this situation one might think.
    - account-5 3y ago
      It doesn't. It's an attempt to make both sides of hanlons razor equal racism with no proof that either side is such. Stupidity = racism Malice = racism
      - cbsmith 3y ago
        Sigh. No, it doesn't mean that both sides of Hanlon's razor equal racism. It does mean that Hanlon's razor doesn't rule out racism. Hanlon's razor isn't about proof. It's about recognizing that one often projects intent onto circumstances where none exists. While racism can fuel malice, it is entirely possible for racism to exist without any malice.
        account-5 3y ago
        We'll have to agree to disagree on your first point. Though... > Hanlon's razor isn't about proof. It's about recognizing that one often projects intent onto circumstances where none exists. Exactly. That is my point. I'm not denying that racism can exist with or without malice, though I'd argue intent has to play a part. My point is based on the information from the article you cannot determine the interaction was racist and calling it so is projecting an intention on it that you cannot say exists.
andreareina 3y ago
Halon's razor applies to the totality of the evidence, not just instance by instance. If you have a pattern of "incompetence" when dealing with First Nations issues that doesn't arise when not, that's really no longer adequately explained by incompetence.
- account-5 3y ago
  Have we established a pattern of behaviour for this particular officer in this regard?
  - cbsmith 3y ago
    No, we haven't. Could be both a fair minded and competent officer for all we know.