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Will Japan see more marriages with Tokyo's taxpayer-funded AI-driven dating app?

43 points by ulrischa 3y ago

FalconSensei 3y ago
The second bullet-point in the subtitle says everything: does that resolve why people don't wanna get married? > One of the most frequently cited reasons why Japanese prefer to remain single and thus contribute to the country’s population decline is the lack of finances to marry and raise children. and... > More worryingly for some, the app will require users to provide documents that confirm their annual incomes So... that looks kida backwards, right?
- dr-detroit 3y ago
  [dead]
- gumballindie 3y ago
  > population decline is the lack of finances to marry and raise children Sounds like Japan suffers from the same issues as the western world. Raising kids is extremely difficult when hosing is unaffordable and people are required to sit in offices.
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
akomtu 3y ago
Dating apps don't need AI. They need tiered access, like clubs where only certain people are admitted.
- HankB99 3y ago
  Is that like the line in Doctor Strangelove: > ... the women will have to be selected for their sexual characteristics which will have to be of a highly stimulating nature.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
ChatGTP 3y ago
Of course not. The Japanese government tries everything with out willing to admit they are they are the actual problem. Jgov very weird ideas about apps. Someone tells them an app could solve their population decline crisis and they buy it. This isn’t the first time. Covid was all sorts of stupid with “apps” too. They had an “AI” app that would call you each day you were supposed to be in quarantine, you were supposed to let the app see you and your background and the AI would detect if you were in the same location or not combined with location data on your phone. It was so stupid, dystopian and flawed.
koqoo 3y ago
AI is eating the world
- bamboozled 3y ago
  They just use “AI” in Japan for everything lately. There is probably next to no AI in that system.
  - jmorenoamor 3y ago
    What is the minimun number of "if" statements a software must have to be called "AI"?
- grotorea 3y ago
  You think this is some real innovative tech or is "AI" here just as a buzzword for old statistics and programming?
jalapenos 3y ago
So just on the "lack of money" argument trope that gets rolled out in Japan whenever this topic comes up. Firstly, to get this out of the way, it's complete nonsense. You only need a quick glace at global fertility and income statistics to know that lower incomes mean more kids. But the psychology behind this statement indicates the true problem. They're picking this false argument because it's an easy way to say the problem is too difficult and slow to fix, so they can leave the debate at that. Because the truth is simple: they don't really want kids that much. My two cents on the solution is that it's quite simple: Japan once had far higher birth rates, and people from back then are still alive. So just ask them: "why did people want to have lots of kids back then?". The solutions would lie in those answers. But the reason it's not being approached that way is because they don't really want more kids. They want to enjoy what little spare time and freedom and money they have for themselves instead.
- bamboozled 3y ago
  Weren’t they asked by the ruling class to have more children? Besides it meant more farm hands, more soldiers. People have been mostly replaced with machines and bombs.
- grotorea 3y ago
  IIRC in Western societies fertility does go up at very high income, so I think there's some truth in that common argument. "Lack of money to raise kids in the way I wish my kids to be raised" may be closer to the truth. I think the large majority of Japanese has enough money to feed and clothe a lot of kids to an 18th century standard. edit with some links from a quick search : Here an article about this starting to happen in Sweden : https://www.niussp.org/fertility-and-reproduction/income-and-fertility-a-positive-relationship/ https://www.niussp.org/fertility-and-reproduction/income-and... A counter example from the US with fertility going down by income with no upturn at the top: https://www.statista.com/statistics/241530/birth-rate-by-family-income-in-the-us/ https://www.statista.com/statistics/241530/birth-rate-by-fam... And a study about Japan showing richer men having more children in the past: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC9045600/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC9045600/
fxtentacle 3y ago
My take is that Europe, Japan, China are all facing the same problem: If you reduce housing to affordable prices, for example by building lots of government-owned rental units like in Singapore, then the old generation who invested into housing is upset that you destroyed their assets. If you keep housing an appreciating asset, then young people are too poor to raise kids on their parents' level, so they might delay/abandon having kids.
- inkyoto 3y ago
  Japan does not have the same house affordability problem. Houses and rent are low compared to most 1st world countries (not including the «luxury» accommodation). Japanese houses are pulled down and rebuilt from scratch every 20-30 years, and concrete buildings last 40-50 years before being torn down, which provides a deterrent from the housing being used as a nest egg. Then there are also cultural nuances where the Japanese people prefer new over old, hence holding on to an old house is uncommon. Property inheritance taxes are also substantial or sky high and make it unpallatable for most people to financially commit to a house long term to pass it on to an family member.
  - DANmode 3y ago
    "Cultural nuances", like avoiding obvious chronic health problems related to living in old, moldy wooden structures (as a good portion of the US does).
    - petre 3y ago
      They also have higher earthquake incidence, which can quickly diminish one's real estate asset valuation.
  - fxtentacle 3y ago
    It is expensive to live where the jobs are. And young families need the income. And they usually don't have the time for a long commute. "Tokyo is one of the most expensive cities in the world. It made the number 10 spot on Deutsche Bank’s annual Mapping the World’s Prices report in 2019 and is the third most expensive city for expatriates on Mercer’s 2020 Cost of Living Survey." https://blog.gaijinpot.com/how-much-is-the-average-rent-in-tokyo/ https://blog.gaijinpot.com/how-much-is-the-average-rent-in-t...
CHB0403085482 3y ago
[flagged]
DrNosferatu 3y ago
Interesting take on being picky about date selection: https://youtu.be/BHf0L8dZJbE?si=_WJWakj9-cSmxQe2 https://youtu.be/BHf0L8dZJbE?si=_WJWakj9-cSmxQe2 [nevertheless - if you you have a demographic crisis - trying new, informed and creative approaches makes perfect sense.]
- gwill 3y ago
  do you mind summarizing the video? i see it's on why ignoring red flags may be a good thing, but i don't have the ability to watch it.
  - DrNosferatu 3y ago
    Title: Red Flags in Relationships: A Surprising Path to Success Speaker: Dr. K, Psychiatrist Introduction Dr. K discusses how red flags in relationships can lead to success, while green flags might sabotage them. He observed this phenomenon in his patients' long-term, successful relationships and in his own marriage. The Role of Red Flags Red Flags as Opportunities: Red flags in early relationships can be stress tests for problem-solving abilities, crucial for long-term success. Personal Example: Dr. K shares his own experience of overcoming red flags in his relationship. Key Insight: Addressing red flags early on reveals a couple's capacity to navigate problems together. The Paradox of Green Flags Green Flags and Perfectionism: Seeking a 'perfect' partner often leads to overlooking important relationship aspects like conflict resolution. Standards and Conflicts: High standards can delay conflict, leading to problems later in the relationship. Unrealistic Expectations: Pursuit of perfection can result in adding more criteria to the 'perfect partner' list, continuing a problematic cycle. The Risks of Seeking Perfection Dependency on Partner: Seeking a partner to fix personal issues can doom the relationship. Emotional Turbulence: Emotional instability, like in red flag relationships, can paradoxically strengthen bonds and attraction. Trauma Bonding: Intense early struggles can lead to strong long-term relationships. Conclusion: Rethinking Relationship Standards: Dr. K urges reevaluation of the impact of both red and green flags. The Value of Compromise: Emphasizes the importance of finding a partner willing to change and compromise. Disclaimer: Clarifies not to pursue abusive relationships or ignore red flags, but to balance understanding of relationship dynamics. Additional Resources: Dr. K mentions resources on communication in relationships and related YouTube videos.
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
naveen99 3y ago
Maybe they should track something analogous to unemployment rate for couples. The percent of people looking for a relationship. With a relationship participation rate analogous to labor participation rate.
more_corn 3y ago
For any headline that ends in a question mark the answer is always “no”. I’m not Japanese, and don’t claim to be an expert, but from the outside Japan’s problem seems to be a deeply engrained and very strange gender dynamic. There appears to be no expectation of care and affection in marriage. No sense of two complete people embarking on a journey together. Japanese men seem weirdly incapable of connecting with women. Japanese women seem weirdly alienated and starved for affection. (Just look at the prevalence of host and hostess bars). Western men in Japan report women flocking to them in part because Japanese women don’t get much at all from Japanese men. I don’t think an app is going to dent the surface of this weird quandary. What might make a difference? Train regular men in the tactics of host bars. “Listen, make her feel welcome, show affection, make her feel that you see and appreciate her, because that makes her feel good” sort of regular shit western people do when courting. And of course the same training could apply on the female side.

43 points by ulrischa 3y ago

The second bullet-point in the subtitle says everything: does that resolve why people don't wanna get married? > One of the most frequently cited reasons why Japanese prefer to remain single and thus contribute to the country’s population decline is the lack of finances to marry and raise children. and... > More worryingly for some, the app will require users to provide documents that confirm their annual incomes So... that looks kida backwards, right?

dr-detroit 3y ago
[dead]
gumballindie 3y ago
> population decline is the lack of finances to marry and raise children Sounds like Japan suffers from the same issues as the western world. Raising kids is extremely difficult when hosing is unaffordable and people are required to sit in offices.

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]

akomtu 3y ago

Dating apps don't need AI. They need tiered access, like clubs where only certain people are admitted.

HankB99 3y ago
Is that like the line in Doctor Strangelove: > ... the women will have to be selected for their sexual characteristics which will have to be of a highly stimulating nature.
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]

ChatGTP 3y ago

Of course not. The Japanese government tries everything with out willing to admit they are they are the actual problem. Jgov very weird ideas about apps. Someone tells them an app could solve their population decline crisis and they buy it. This isn’t the first time. Covid was all sorts of stupid with “apps” too. They had an “AI” app that would call you each day you were supposed to be in quarantine, you were supposed to let the app see you and your background and the AI would detect if you were in the same location or not combined with location data on your phone. It was so stupid, dystopian and flawed.

koqoo 3y ago

AI is eating the world

bamboozled 3y ago
They just use “AI” in Japan for everything lately. There is probably next to no AI in that system.
- jmorenoamor 3y ago
  What is the minimun number of "if" statements a software must have to be called "AI"?
grotorea 3y ago
You think this is some real innovative tech or is "AI" here just as a buzzword for old statistics and programming?

jalapenos 3y ago

So just on the "lack of money" argument trope that gets rolled out in Japan whenever this topic comes up. Firstly, to get this out of the way, it's complete nonsense. You only need a quick glace at global fertility and income statistics to know that lower incomes mean more kids. But the psychology behind this statement indicates the true problem. They're picking this false argument because it's an easy way to say the problem is too difficult and slow to fix, so they can leave the debate at that. Because the truth is simple: they don't really want kids that much. My two cents on the solution is that it's quite simple: Japan once had far higher birth rates, and people from back then are still alive. So just ask them: "why did people want to have lots of kids back then?". The solutions would lie in those answers. But the reason it's not being approached that way is because they don't really want more kids. They want to enjoy what little spare time and freedom and money they have for themselves instead.

bamboozled 3y ago
Weren’t they asked by the ruling class to have more children? Besides it meant more farm hands, more soldiers. People have been mostly replaced with machines and bombs.
grotorea 3y ago
IIRC in Western societies fertility does go up at very high income, so I think there's some truth in that common argument. "Lack of money to raise kids in the way I wish my kids to be raised" may be closer to the truth. I think the large majority of Japanese has enough money to feed and clothe a lot of kids to an 18th century standard. edit with some links from a quick search : Here an article about this starting to happen in Sweden : https://www.niussp.org/fertility-and-reproduction/income-and-fertility-a-positive-relationship/ https://www.niussp.org/fertility-and-reproduction/income-and... A counter example from the US with fertility going down by income with no upturn at the top: https://www.statista.com/statistics/241530/birth-rate-by-family-income-in-the-us/ https://www.statista.com/statistics/241530/birth-rate-by-fam... And a study about Japan showing richer men having more children in the past: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC9045600/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC9045600/

fxtentacle 3y ago

My take is that Europe, Japan, China are all facing the same problem: If you reduce housing to affordable prices, for example by building lots of government-owned rental units like in Singapore, then the old generation who invested into housing is upset that you destroyed their assets. If you keep housing an appreciating asset, then young people are too poor to raise kids on their parents' level, so they might delay/abandon having kids.

inkyoto 3y ago
Japan does not have the same house affordability problem. Houses and rent are low compared to most 1st world countries (not including the «luxury» accommodation). Japanese houses are pulled down and rebuilt from scratch every 20-30 years, and concrete buildings last 40-50 years before being torn down, which provides a deterrent from the housing being used as a nest egg. Then there are also cultural nuances where the Japanese people prefer new over old, hence holding on to an old house is uncommon. Property inheritance taxes are also substantial or sky high and make it unpallatable for most people to financially commit to a house long term to pass it on to an family member.
- DANmode 3y ago
  "Cultural nuances", like avoiding obvious chronic health problems related to living in old, moldy wooden structures (as a good portion of the US does).
  - petre 3y ago
    They also have higher earthquake incidence, which can quickly diminish one's real estate asset valuation.
- fxtentacle 3y ago
  It is expensive to live where the jobs are. And young families need the income. And they usually don't have the time for a long commute. "Tokyo is one of the most expensive cities in the world. It made the number 10 spot on Deutsche Bank’s annual Mapping the World’s Prices report in 2019 and is the third most expensive city for expatriates on Mercer’s 2020 Cost of Living Survey." https://blog.gaijinpot.com/how-much-is-the-average-rent-in-tokyo/ https://blog.gaijinpot.com/how-much-is-the-average-rent-in-t...

CHB0403085482 3y ago

[flagged]

DrNosferatu 3y ago

Interesting take on being picky about date selection: https://youtu.be/BHf0L8dZJbE?si=_WJWakj9-cSmxQe2 https://youtu.be/BHf0L8dZJbE?si=_WJWakj9-cSmxQe2 [nevertheless - if you you have a demographic crisis - trying new, informed and creative approaches makes perfect sense.]

gwill 3y ago
do you mind summarizing the video? i see it's on why ignoring red flags may be a good thing, but i don't have the ability to watch it.
- DrNosferatu 3y ago
  Title: Red Flags in Relationships: A Surprising Path to Success Speaker: Dr. K, Psychiatrist Introduction Dr. K discusses how red flags in relationships can lead to success, while green flags might sabotage them. He observed this phenomenon in his patients' long-term, successful relationships and in his own marriage. The Role of Red Flags Red Flags as Opportunities: Red flags in early relationships can be stress tests for problem-solving abilities, crucial for long-term success. Personal Example: Dr. K shares his own experience of overcoming red flags in his relationship. Key Insight: Addressing red flags early on reveals a couple's capacity to navigate problems together. The Paradox of Green Flags Green Flags and Perfectionism: Seeking a 'perfect' partner often leads to overlooking important relationship aspects like conflict resolution. Standards and Conflicts: High standards can delay conflict, leading to problems later in the relationship. Unrealistic Expectations: Pursuit of perfection can result in adding more criteria to the 'perfect partner' list, continuing a problematic cycle. The Risks of Seeking Perfection Dependency on Partner: Seeking a partner to fix personal issues can doom the relationship. Emotional Turbulence: Emotional instability, like in red flag relationships, can paradoxically strengthen bonds and attraction. Trauma Bonding: Intense early struggles can lead to strong long-term relationships. Conclusion: Rethinking Relationship Standards: Dr. K urges reevaluation of the impact of both red and green flags. The Value of Compromise: Emphasizes the importance of finding a partner willing to change and compromise. Disclaimer: Clarifies not to pursue abusive relationships or ignore red flags, but to balance understanding of relationship dynamics. Additional Resources: Dr. K mentions resources on communication in relationships and related YouTube videos.

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]

naveen99 3y ago

Maybe they should track something analogous to unemployment rate for couples. The percent of people looking for a relationship. With a relationship participation rate analogous to labor participation rate.

more_corn 3y ago

For any headline that ends in a question mark the answer is always “no”. I’m not Japanese, and don’t claim to be an expert, but from the outside Japan’s problem seems to be a deeply engrained and very strange gender dynamic. There appears to be no expectation of care and affection in marriage. No sense of two complete people embarking on a journey together. Japanese men seem weirdly incapable of connecting with women. Japanese women seem weirdly alienated and starved for affection. (Just look at the prevalence of host and hostess bars). Western men in Japan report women flocking to them in part because Japanese women don’t get much at all from Japanese men. I don’t think an app is going to dent the surface of this weird quandary. What might make a difference? Train regular men in the tactics of host bars. “Listen, make her feel welcome, show affection, make her feel that you see and appreciate her, because that makes her feel good” sort of regular shit western people do when courting. And of course the same training could apply on the female side.