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French cheese under threat from lack of microbial diversity
- incomingpain 3y agoTip: People with allergies to penicillin often love blue cheeses but are unknowingly harming themselves mildly. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Penicillium_roqueforti https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Penicillium_roqueforti Yes, most of the penicillin breaks down... but..
- hollerith 3y agoMost of the penicillin breaks down before it has a chance to enter the bloodstream, but not before the components of the immune system resident in the gut and the gut's lining detect it, initiating a reaction that can involve the entire body.
- incomingpain 3y agoTotally correct!
- sokoloff 3y agoIf I had such an allergy, I'm pretty sure I would continue to harm myself mildly, knowingly or not.
- incomingpain 3y agoLol, guilty as charged. Blue cheese dressing with my wings is still a thing I do. I do the others as well like ranch, so it's not that common and I get away with it I think.
- manmal 3y agoDo you mean blue cheese in particular, or just anything stimulating opioid receptors?
- nonethewiser 3y ago> People with allergies to penicillin often love blue cheeses Are you saying penicillin allergies cause or influence this? Or simply coincidental, since many people in general like blue cheese. Also, supposedly penicillin allergies are often inaccurate. Either false diagnosis as a child or simply growing out of it. Guess maybe blue cheese could be a good test.
- incomingpain 3y ago\0/ I don't know is the correct most answer I can provide. In terms of am I allergic, oh ya, no question. Recently been minorly exposed and reaffirmed that one again. Though typically I must take it internally to really screw me up. Blue cheeses taste like it's an elixer of the gods to me. totally unlike all other things. I enjoy practically all other cheeses, but they are not quite the same thing.
- InitialLastName 3y agoI was hoping your link would have interesting information about allergic reactions to blue cheese (and possibly a trend where those allergic to penicillin are drawn to blue cheese), but for anyone who follows: no such luck.
- OJFord 3y agoI don't know anything about this, to be honest this comes from ChatGPT, but anyway it reckons: > The allergic reactions to penicillin are caused by the beta-lactam ring in the penicillin compound, which is not present in the Penicillium roqueforti mold. Do you know that to be incorrect? Just searching it seems correct about beta-lactam allergy, but I'm not sure about what's in P. roqueforti.
- telesilla 3y agoThose consumers who also don't buy heritage tomatoes or apples because of the irregularities in appearance, will be the ones who lose out. Sounds like there are still plenty of opportunities for cheeses, just not in a uniform delivery.
- ToucanLoucan 3y agoIt's a crime against humanity how much food is thrown away because it's "not appealing" enough to the eye when we have so many in this world who go to bed hungry. I hope someday there's a society we've managed to build that's good enough to look back on the 20th and 21st centuries with the judgemental glare we rightly deserve.
- daveoc64 3y agoIn the UK, most of the supermarkets now sell "wonky" fruit and veg - it may look less appealing, but it's safe to eat and cheaper.
- gambiting 3y ago>>It's a crime against humanity how much food is thrown away How much of it is actually thrown away though? It's my understanding that the "ugly" looking vegetables are just used to make sauces, canned produce, ready meals etc etc. No one is throwing out perfectly good tomatoes just because they are ugly - they just get turned into something else.
- Kluggy 3y agoOr made into chips https://www.ugliessnacks.com https://www.ugliessnacks.com
- soco 3y agoIf they are redirected at the producer, for sure. But if they are labeled as ugly, or expired, only when they are on the shelves, I'm not that sure anymore. So I don't know how much is each share - recycled vs thrown away... and again, what does "thrown away" mean? Vegetables landing in compost are thrown away?
- 6LLvveMx2koXfwn 3y agoWho would have thought compromising genetic diversity might lead to problems downstream . . .
- ajsnigrutin 3y agoThis surely never happened before, that's why artificial banana flavourings taste exactly the same as banans we get in stores today!
- ToucanLoucan 3y agoKnowing history doesn't let you not repeat it, it just shows you the flat circle the vast majority of society runs on, making the exact same fucking mistakes over and over again.
- mnw21cam 3y agoExperience is what allows you to recognise a mistake the second time you make it.
- pxx 3y agoThis is a myth. The causal effect does not go that way. There is little evidence that artificial banana flavors were developed in a way to mimic older cultivars of banana. https://www.bbc.com/future/article/20140829-the-secrets-of-fake-flavours https://www.bbc.com/future/article/20140829-the-secrets-of-f...
- Toutouxc 3y agoThe article doesn't really dispel the myth, just shuffles the causality around. To me it sounds like it's still true that artificial banana tastes different that what we can get now.
- nonethewiser 3y ago> To me it sounds like it's still true that artificial banana tastes different that what we can get now. But that's not whats being claimed. He's rebutting the claim (which the original commenter may or may not have implied) that artificial banana flavor is like the old banana's that dont exist anymore. He, nor anyone here, is saying artificial banana tastes like real banana. And if someone like that shows up lets get them.
- wkat4242 3y agoIn this case it looks like a completely self-imposed problem by the industry. Pretty similar to the fishing industry actually. Focus on short-term profits and none on long term sustainability :'(
- SV_BubbleTime 3y agoYou make it seem like they knew and just ignored the risks of lowering the biodiversity. The exceptionally more likely scenario is they had no idea what those risks were. It’s also complete clickbait nonsense to suggest blue cheeses will go away. When the reality is they may add some more colors, or have to come up with some more options. But these cheeses aren’t going anywhere.
- nonethewiser 3y agoIf blue cheese is no longer blue then you could argue it did go away.
- GuB-42 3y agoIt doesn't seem there is a much of a problem with blue cheese in general. Some strains of blue molds are endangered, but there are plenty of other blue molds that are fine. According to the article Camembert and Brie are more at risk as their white mold is more rare. They won't disappear either, but if we don't do something, they may stop being white and start being blue, and maybe taste a little different. It doesn't mean they can't make good cheeses, but it will be different from the cheeses we know.
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- nonethewiser 3y agoYeah, pretty much this from the article: > Consequently, the fungi that have accumulated multiple deleterious mutations in their genomes over years of vegetative propagation become virtually infertile, adversely affecting cheese production. “This is what happens when we completely stop using sexual reproduction,” Giraud explains. “It’s the only way to compensate for detrimental mutations through the introduction of new genes – the famous genetic mixing.” Live and learn. Seems like a common story in agriculture. Perhaps we can relearn this lesson in the context of human propagation someday.
- Toutouxc 3y ago> Until the 1950s, Camemberts still had grey, green or in some cases orange-tinged moulds on their surface. But the industry was not fond of these colours, considering them unappealing I couldn't help but chuckle. The mouldy cheese industry says something is unappealing.
- toxik 3y agoWhat’s next, the Scots food-dyeing haggis to look more appealing?
- nonethewiser 3y agoI don't see anything ironic or not self-aware about this. There are molds ranging from benign and non-descript to deadly and grotesque looking. I wouldn't expect someone OK with eating the former to be OK with any mold on that basis. In fact I would expect them to be highly scrutinizing because its fucking mold.
- mnw21cam 3y agoIn other words, having your cheese a predictable colour allows you to recognise when something else is growing on it.
- leobg 3y agoReminds me of a book I read more than a decade ago. The Culture Code. By Clotaire Rapaille. He argued that 'the French Code for cheese is ALIVE. The American Code for cheese, on the other hand, is DEAD.' I don’t have the book handy, but here is a quote from the web: > I started working with a French company in America, and they were trying to sell French cheese to the Americans. And they didn't understand, because in France the cheese is alive, which means that you can buy it young, mature or old, and that's why you have to read the age of the cheese when you go to buy the cheese. So you smell, you touch, you poke. If you need cheese for today, you want to buy a mature cheese. If you want cheese for next week, you buy a young cheese. And when you buy young cheese for next week, you go home, [but] you never put the cheese in the refrigerator, because you don't put your cat in the refrigerator. It's the same; it's alive. We are very afraid of getting sick with cheese.
- carabiner 3y agoYes, the US FDA has tight restrictions on unpasteurized milk and cheeses, and France does not. Some French cheeses are straight up illegal in the US because they're raw and not aged long enough i.e. reblochon.
- jandrese 3y agoIf you are wondering, yes, every year a handful of French people get hospitalized from eating bad cheese. Usually E. Coli contamination.
- forty 3y agoI like how cheese stubbornly doesn't want to be an industrial tasteless odorless crap. Camembert is well known to be mostly controlled by industrial, meaning most Camembert even here in France are industrial crap (there is a AOP/DPO "Camembert de Normandie" which is better and at least forbids pasteurized milk).
- JodieBenitez 3y agoWatch out for: - Jort - Marie Harel - Gillot - Moulin de Carel
- hammock 3y agoThose are good ones? Or bad ones? I believe Marie Harel invented camembert
- wazoox 3y agoThose are good.
- JodieBenitez 3y agoYes, those are good ones. BTW, Marie Harel is made by Gillot. As a general rule, avoid any pasteurized camembert, they have no taste.
- scooke 3y ago"Keep an eye out for" better fits your intention. "Watch out for" implies potential danger or a need for caution. "Watch for" might work but is more for use in an active situation that changes.
- JodieBenitez 3y agoThanks. English is not my first language, it's good to learn more of it. Actually, one could argue there's potential danger in good cheese. A danger for pasteurized cheese of course.
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- WirelessGigabit 3y agoCleanliness is also the cause that there were less and smaller holes in Swiss Cheese. HN-celebrated Tom Scott did a video on it last year: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=evV05QeSjAw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=evV05QeSjAw
- hammock 3y agoTLDR: milk is produced in closed system now, meaning dust from the barn doesn't get in it. They added 1 part per thousand of hay dust to the milk, and all the holes came back
- troad 3y agoThank you for the summary. YouTube links are a terrible way to transmit information.
- adr1an 3y agoIndeed. That's why this tool comes so handy (already featured in hn), https://www.videogist.co/videos/how-they-saved-the-holes-in-swiss-cheese-5128 https://www.videogist.co/videos/how-they-saved-the-holes-in-...
- fsckboy 3y ago1cc of hay dust per liter of milk is actually a lot of hay dust. does the hay need to be from the barn, are we talking barn dust here?
- 11235813213455 3y agoMost people would call vegetable rotten when they start to ferment, but that's just like for cheese, it makes them better raw (for peppers, onions, garlic, grapes, etc..)
- mtlmtlmtlmtl 3y agoBananas too. They're the best when the skin starts going black, which is when a lot of people throw em out. It's once they start turning white you might wanna move em to the compost.
- trealira 3y agoThey're still good for baking banana bread when they're black. I don't like directly eating bananas with black skin, though; they're mushy and overly sweet.
- RoyalHenOil 3y agoIt depends on the variety. All the supermarket bananas I've tried in the US and Australia are way too cloying and lose what little complexity of flavor they had once they get that ripe. However, when I did study abroad in Costa Rica, I ate a lot of different kinds of fruit out of people's backyard fruit trees. All the best bananas I tried there had entirely black peels (no yellow at all), yet the fruit was firm and not overripe, and they were so indescribably good that they completely ruined supermarket bananas for me. I no longer eat bananas.
- ijhuygft776 3y ago> They're the best when the skin starts going black they are way too sweet for me when the skin is mostly black... I do like fermented pepper hot sauce though
- BiteCode_dev 3y agoNo it's not. There are plenty of small cheese makers with diverse biomes and we buy from them every day. They all have their own batch, many are unique passed from generations or affected by the animals they raise. Nobody expect supermarket cheese to be sustainable anymore than their standardized vegetable.
- mylons 3y agodo you have any idea on how the biodiversity of cheese is catalogued? i'd love to read more about that!
- pazimzadeh 3y ago> the fungi that have accumulated multiple deleterious mutations in their genomes over years of vegetative propagation become virtually infertile If they've identified the genes that led to the bacteria becoming infertile, then they should be able to reverse the genetic changes. > “Genome editing is another form of selection. What we need today is the diversity provided by sexual reproduction between individuals with different genomes.” That kind of reads like nonsense, or phobia of genetic engineering. The only reason sexual reproduction would be required is if the original strains are not fit any more due to new selective pressures in the modern environment. But then you run the risk of changing the properties (flavor) of cheese since it's constantly mutating. So your 2010 Brie might taste different than 2030 Brie from the same brand. In research this was solved by making stocks of your strain once you're happy with it and freezing it at -80C so you can keep going back to it.
- flir 3y ago> But then you run the risk of changing the properties (flavor) of cheese since it's constantly mutating. So your 2010 Brie might taste different than 2030 Brie from the same brand. Hopefully, yes.
- h0l0cube 3y agoGod forbid something new and interesting might happen! Hopefully it isn't food poisoning though. History has shown that as soon as we learn the market optimizing mechanisms behind something, we find a way to make it boring (movie sequels, reboots, MCU anyone?) > Until the 1950s, Camemberts still had grey, green or in some cases orange-tinged moulds on their surface. But the industry was not fond of these colours, considering them unappealing, and staked everything on the albino strain of P. camemberti, which is completely white and moreover has a silky texture. Give me the orange camembert please.
- flir 3y ago> MCU anyone Visual paste. I've done a little bit of cheesemaking, and I think it's very unusual for an average human immune system to get poisoned by cheese. You very quickly know if something's gone wrong in the process. Same goes for clabber, cultured butter, yoghurt, kefir. In fact I'd say raw milk is the greater risk.
- bilsbie 3y agoI wish we could take better care of our planet.
- CatWChainsaw 3y agoThe fact that you got downvoted for wishing to be a better planetary steward is proof of severe mental pathology among HNers, tbqh.
- beibeibei 3y ago[dead]
- colordrops 3y agoI'm sure most of you don't want to hear it, but the dairy industry is brutal for cows, in many ways far worse than the meat industry. Cows are forceably impregnated repeatedly to keep milk flowing, and their calves are taken from them and slaughtered for veal. Some breeds are so large they can barely move, often being milked in their last moments while laying prone. Then they are slaughtered like meat cows in the end.
- paulkon 3y agoWhat are the vegan cheese alternatives I can conceivably substitute in a dinner party of discerning charcuterie board lovers?
- colordrops 3y agoI wasn't looking to promote cheese alternatives, but rather point out the cruelty of the industry. In any case, cheese is difficult to replicate due to the nature of the proteins in milk. There are companies that have made casein in bioreactors that will hopefully soon put products on the market. Until then, there are other alternatives, but don't expect them to have the same flavor and texture. Some of the best ones are not trying to be a facsimile. There's the Vegan Cheese Co that maintains a worldwide database of vegan cheeses, and here's the list from their yearly awards: https://www.vegancheese.co/awards https://www.vegancheese.co/awards
- sjwhbbdhd 3y agoSo I think if you don't want to eat cheese for your own reasons or advocate for that.. kudos. However, my experience is not all farms are so aggressive even in the USA (look for bull bred) and in France I've seen plenty of cheese making operations very in touch with traditional methods and not what I'd personally call cruel at all (sheep cheese made in the Pyrenees in particular) Also the regulations in France prevent a constant pregnancy. https://agriculture.gouv.fr/le-bien-etre-et-la-protection-des-vaches-laitieres https://agriculture.gouv.fr/le-bien-etre-et-la-protection-de... I think things could be improved of course and I'm all for improving the lot of animals.
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- pfdietz 3y agoBrethren, truly I tell you: we have a friend in cheeses.