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We have zoning and internationally recognized building safety codes already. Our current housing emergency happening everywhere is a pretty good indicator that

We have zoning and internationally recognized building safety codes already. Our current housing emergency happening everywhere is a pretty good indicator that we should be much more aggressive about trimming back the regulatory state which has ossified our cities.

greenthrow 3y ago
Your argument doesn't really make sense because the problem isn't lack of houses or apartments, there's plenty of places to put everyone. The problem is one of affordability. The costs of stuff that already exists and has existed for ages isn't really tied to the current cost to build, even if we buy the specious argument that all regulation raises costs and those costs are inevitably passed directly to tenants.
- bluGill 3y ago
  supply and eemand sets rents. You you rent perfecly good existing houses cheap in rural areas. Nobody wants to like there. There is no reason to think there is enourh room for everyone who wants to like in San Francisco, and statistics prove they heve not been building much. Mean while in other states we find areas of demand where housing is not expensive. Where I live you can rent one bedroom apartments for under $1000, mohe in won't be until spring as the building is still under construction. The owners are planning on starting the next building when this is done. That is what allosing building does.
  - wiml 3y ago
    Supply, demand, and cartels like Realpage.
    - eru 3y ago
      Cartel's can't just magically set prices. They can withhold supply, and that might have an effect on market prices.
      - deleted 3y ago
        [deleted]
      - astrange 3y ago
        You can't pay the mortgage on a place you're not renting out though, so they mostly can't withhold supply. It applies more to things like retired people living by themselves in a 3 bedroom house.
        eru 3y ago
        OK. Though if they can't withhold supply, how are those cartels supposed to hold up prices, then?
        astrange 3y ago
        They don't, it's not real. (Except that they can prevent construction of new units through zoning.)
      - tremon 3y ago
        Ehm, what? Of course cartels can magically set prices. That's what a cartel is for: to make collusion easier.
        eru 3y ago
        Even OPEC can't magically set prices. Cartels make collusion easier, but you still have to do concrete steps to raise market prices. OPEC does that via production cuts. Or rather tries to do that.
    - astrange 3y ago
      Real estate has very distributed ownership and none of them are motivated to form a cartel. The only way they can maintain one is through legal force. Zoning laws are almost entirely that force; they're a way to establish a cartel of homeowners.
  - greenthrow 3y ago
    This is just factually not true. There is plenty of empty homes, apartments and condos to house everyone. There are many units kept empty rather than lower prices. It is a myth that supply and demand sets prices.
    - Schiendelman 3y ago
      This comment makes me really sad; it's someone who wants to help but ends up hurting.
    - worik 3y ago
      There is also the effect of rich people needing a place to stash money and not wanting to bother with tennants Housing activists in Melbourne have been campaigning about that for years now I did not believe that was true until I stumbled on it happening. A rich lawyer, a salary far too big to spend, so they collected (empty) houses. They did not care about cash flow A tax on empty houses in areas with accommodation shortage at worse cannot hurt and at best could free up a lot of accommodation
  - throwaway2037 3y ago
    > Nobody wants to li[v]e there. It would be better to say that rents are lower in rural areas because there is either more supply or lower median salary.
eru 3y ago
Zoning is already pretty bad (at least in the US), and doesn't really have anything to do with safety. In the sense that even without zoning laws, there were already public nuisance laws that wouldn't have allowed you to open a coal fired power plant next to a Kindergarten.
- gamepsys 3y ago
  Zoning laws have a lot to do with safety & public health. Industrial zoning is far away from residential because factories produce pollution. Edit: Some parts of zoning law has to do with safety/health. Some parts don't. Some parts are about more than one thing. When I was growing up there was a chemical fire in a factory in town. People were evacuated. Luckily, very few homes were evacuated because zoning laws kept homes far away from the factory. The residential area that was evacuated was low density. The point I'm trying to make is that there is some value in some of these rules.
  - lukas099 3y ago
    Okay, what is the safety reason my barber can’t operate out of a room in his house?
    - richiebful1 3y ago
      No reason. Countries like Japan have reasonable zoning, meaning industrial uses are separate, but commercial and residential is largely interspersed. Which is great!
    - shiroiuma 3y ago
      That's easy: your barber operating a business out of his house will result in customers coming to your neighborhood, and that might bring "those people" around, and we can't have that.
      - u32480932048 3y ago
        That's ridiculous. Those people can't get even get to the neighborhood because the residents have gone out of their way to eliminate public transit (which is for poors).
scythe 3y ago
>internationally recognized building safety codes I mean, the "International Building Code" is a little bit like the "World Series" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Building_Code https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Building_Code >"Calling it 'international' keeps it from being called the 'U.S. Building Code.'" explains Bill Tangye, SBCCI Chief Executive Officer.
seanmcdirmid 3y ago
> Our current housing emergency happening everywhere is a pretty good indicator that we should be much more aggressive about trimming back the regulatory state which has ossified our cities. That isn't true though. Our housing emergency is limited to places that are growing and thriving. There isn't a housing emergency in Detroit or much of the midwest for example, just not many are thrilled about moving to those places (or want to leave them as soon as possible).
- astrange 3y ago
  Those places that don't have housing emergencies generally have just as bad regulations, and would have the same problems the instant they became appealing enough to move there. Eventually you run out of built out sprawl.
  - seanmcdirmid 3y ago
    > hose places that don't have housing emergencies generally have just as bad regulations, and would have the same problems the instant they became appealing enough to move there. If American population was equalized across these other cities, there would be less pressure on the few hot places everyone wants to move now, since our population isn't growing so much these days. > Eventually you run out of built out sprawl. Manhattan is not a sprawl and a very desirable place to live, with super high rents to boot. Hong Kong, Seoul, Shanghai, and even Tokyo are the same, so I'm not sure what you are trying to claim here. Out of all those, only Tokyo does well, but that wasn't the case in the 80s and is on the basis of a moribund economy and a not growing national population (one wonders when Seoul and SH will follow). IF you want to solve your housing emergency, limit growth in some way (or at least, make sure residents don't have as much money to bid up housing).
    - shiroiuma 3y ago
      >Manhattan is not a sprawl and a very desirable place to live, with super high rents to boot. Hong Kong, Seoul, Shanghai, and even Tokyo are the same, so I'm not sure what you are trying to claim here. Those cities are actually impossible to have in America (yes, including Manhattan), because of zoning laws and various other laws. Manhattan is only allowed to exist because it's grandfathered in and the local laws allow it. Such a city could never be built anywhere else in the US without some huge changes in legislation (not to mention local culture, since that drives the local legislation). >IF you want to solve your housing emergency, limit growth in some way Tokyo works because growth isn't limited: it's very easy to build here, unlike in the US. Tokyo builds hundreds of thousands of new housing units every single year, while the US struggles to build any. This is entirely because of regulations.

greenthrow 3y ago

Your argument doesn't really make sense because the problem isn't lack of houses or apartments, there's plenty of places to put everyone. The problem is one of affordability. The costs of stuff that already exists and has existed for ages isn't really tied to the current cost to build, even if we buy the specious argument that all regulation raises costs and those costs are inevitably passed directly to tenants.

bluGill 3y ago
supply and eemand sets rents. You you rent perfecly good existing houses cheap in rural areas. Nobody wants to like there. There is no reason to think there is enourh room for everyone who wants to like in San Francisco, and statistics prove they heve not been building much. Mean while in other states we find areas of demand where housing is not expensive. Where I live you can rent one bedroom apartments for under $1000, mohe in won't be until spring as the building is still under construction. The owners are planning on starting the next building when this is done. That is what allosing building does.
- wiml 3y ago
  Supply, demand, and cartels like Realpage.
  - eru 3y ago
    Cartel's can't just magically set prices. They can withhold supply, and that might have an effect on market prices.
    - deleted 3y ago
      [deleted]
    - astrange 3y ago
      You can't pay the mortgage on a place you're not renting out though, so they mostly can't withhold supply. It applies more to things like retired people living by themselves in a 3 bedroom house.
      - eru 3y ago
        OK. Though if they can't withhold supply, how are those cartels supposed to hold up prices, then?
        astrange 3y ago
        They don't, it's not real. (Except that they can prevent construction of new units through zoning.)
    - tremon 3y ago
      Ehm, what? Of course cartels can magically set prices. That's what a cartel is for: to make collusion easier.
      - eru 3y ago
        Even OPEC can't magically set prices. Cartels make collusion easier, but you still have to do concrete steps to raise market prices. OPEC does that via production cuts. Or rather tries to do that.
  - astrange 3y ago
    Real estate has very distributed ownership and none of them are motivated to form a cartel. The only way they can maintain one is through legal force. Zoning laws are almost entirely that force; they're a way to establish a cartel of homeowners.
- greenthrow 3y ago
  This is just factually not true. There is plenty of empty homes, apartments and condos to house everyone. There are many units kept empty rather than lower prices. It is a myth that supply and demand sets prices.
  - Schiendelman 3y ago
    This comment makes me really sad; it's someone who wants to help but ends up hurting.
  - worik 3y ago
    There is also the effect of rich people needing a place to stash money and not wanting to bother with tennants Housing activists in Melbourne have been campaigning about that for years now I did not believe that was true until I stumbled on it happening. A rich lawyer, a salary far too big to spend, so they collected (empty) houses. They did not care about cash flow A tax on empty houses in areas with accommodation shortage at worse cannot hurt and at best could free up a lot of accommodation
- throwaway2037 3y ago
  > Nobody wants to li[v]e there. It would be better to say that rents are lower in rural areas because there is either more supply or lower median salary.

eru 3y ago

Zoning is already pretty bad (at least in the US), and doesn't really have anything to do with safety. In the sense that even without zoning laws, there were already public nuisance laws that wouldn't have allowed you to open a coal fired power plant next to a Kindergarten.

gamepsys 3y ago
Zoning laws have a lot to do with safety & public health. Industrial zoning is far away from residential because factories produce pollution. Edit: Some parts of zoning law has to do with safety/health. Some parts don't. Some parts are about more than one thing. When I was growing up there was a chemical fire in a factory in town. People were evacuated. Luckily, very few homes were evacuated because zoning laws kept homes far away from the factory. The residential area that was evacuated was low density. The point I'm trying to make is that there is some value in some of these rules.
- lukas099 3y ago
  Okay, what is the safety reason my barber can’t operate out of a room in his house?
  - richiebful1 3y ago
    No reason. Countries like Japan have reasonable zoning, meaning industrial uses are separate, but commercial and residential is largely interspersed. Which is great!
  - shiroiuma 3y ago
    That's easy: your barber operating a business out of his house will result in customers coming to your neighborhood, and that might bring "those people" around, and we can't have that.
    - u32480932048 3y ago
      That's ridiculous. Those people can't get even get to the neighborhood because the residents have gone out of their way to eliminate public transit (which is for poors).

scythe 3y ago

>internationally recognized building safety codes I mean, the "International Building Code" is a little bit like the "World Series" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Building_Code https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Building_Code >"Calling it 'international' keeps it from being called the 'U.S. Building Code.'" explains Bill Tangye, SBCCI Chief Executive Officer.

seanmcdirmid 3y ago

> Our current housing emergency happening everywhere is a pretty good indicator that we should be much more aggressive about trimming back the regulatory state which has ossified our cities. That isn't true though. Our housing emergency is limited to places that are growing and thriving. There isn't a housing emergency in Detroit or much of the midwest for example, just not many are thrilled about moving to those places (or want to leave them as soon as possible).

astrange 3y ago
Those places that don't have housing emergencies generally have just as bad regulations, and would have the same problems the instant they became appealing enough to move there. Eventually you run out of built out sprawl.
- seanmcdirmid 3y ago
  > hose places that don't have housing emergencies generally have just as bad regulations, and would have the same problems the instant they became appealing enough to move there. If American population was equalized across these other cities, there would be less pressure on the few hot places everyone wants to move now, since our population isn't growing so much these days. > Eventually you run out of built out sprawl. Manhattan is not a sprawl and a very desirable place to live, with super high rents to boot. Hong Kong, Seoul, Shanghai, and even Tokyo are the same, so I'm not sure what you are trying to claim here. Out of all those, only Tokyo does well, but that wasn't the case in the 80s and is on the basis of a moribund economy and a not growing national population (one wonders when Seoul and SH will follow). IF you want to solve your housing emergency, limit growth in some way (or at least, make sure residents don't have as much money to bid up housing).
  - shiroiuma 3y ago
    >Manhattan is not a sprawl and a very desirable place to live, with super high rents to boot. Hong Kong, Seoul, Shanghai, and even Tokyo are the same, so I'm not sure what you are trying to claim here. Those cities are actually impossible to have in America (yes, including Manhattan), because of zoning laws and various other laws. Manhattan is only allowed to exist because it's grandfathered in and the local laws allow it. Such a city could never be built anywhere else in the US without some huge changes in legislation (not to mention local culture, since that drives the local legislation). >IF you want to solve your housing emergency, limit growth in some way Tokyo works because growth isn't limited: it's very easy to build here, unlike in the US. Tokyo builds hundreds of thousands of new housing units every single year, while the US struggles to build any. This is entirely because of regulations.