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I'm one who has identified much with descriptions of Autism but never been diagnosed. In particular, the descriptions of monotropism[0] feel like a personal att

I'm one who has identified much with descriptions of Autism but never been diagnosed. In particular, the descriptions of monotropism[0] feel like a personal attack. :) The article doesn't seem to mention it but it's common to see similar commentary from diagnosed autistic people who have been introduced to the idea. Now just to find a competent neurologist who's willing to run a brain scan. 0: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monotropism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monotropism

mrangle 3y ago
Differential diagnosis for adult type 1 autism is really tricky. Due to the fact that so many symptoms are shared with other diagnoses. In addition to monotropism, you'd want to find at least one or two other differentiating traits that are not commonly shared with other diagnoses. You can probably do much of that research and introspection on your own. At least to the point of getting more of a head start. The clinical option is a team diagnosis, which will be expensive. You'd want to weigh what the benefits vs risks (cost, medical records, etc) are for formal diagnosis vs informal (yourself as diagnostician). Especially considering lack of direct treatments.
- tudorw 3y ago
  A rightly sensitive and complex subject all round, for some reasons I have acquaintances seek my counsel on this subject and in the absence of a diagnosis, which can be hard to get, I suggest applying any of the no harm mitigating strategies often suggested where possible, if it works, you'll probably recognise that, then you can make adaptations with your control at least, a formal diagnosis might not make as much difference as one might feel it should.
  - pbhjpbhj 3y ago
    >I suggest applying any of the no harm mitigating strategies often suggested where possible // Such as? Thanks.
    - mrglick 3y ago
      There are a lot of therapies that can be helpful for people on the autism spectrum and aren’t harmful. One example might be helping people learn how to get out of “Defense Mode”, as advocated by https://www.aspergerexperts.com https://www.aspergerexperts.com (there’s a bit of a sales vibe here since they are a business, but the general perspective has proven very helpful to me as a parent of someone on the spectrum). It’s true that these same therapies might generally be helpful for all people, but that’s why it’s a spectrum.
    - tudorw 3y ago
      Here is some signposting; https://www.autism.org.uk/advice-and-guidance/topics/strategies-and-interventions https://www.autism.org.uk/advice-and-guidance/topics/strateg...
- Fnoord 3y ago
  I had a team diagnosis. Cost depends on where you live. Here in NL there's a waiting list (adult nearly a year pre-corona, since corona kids even longer) and you'll burn through your medical "own risk" (currently IIRC 485 EUR a year) but you might already burn through that and they tried to fit in as much as possible in a year (besides the diagnosis also counseling). We both had a different diagnosis before our current. The thing is: diagnoses can co-exist but the other ones stem from autism. Autism is the root of the problem (or the roit of being if ya wanna word with cup half full). Ever since we got our diagnoses our life has been in full motion once again. Though we also became parents right after (twice) and that alone is a rollercoaster.
ssalka 3y ago
My way of thinking tends to be monotropic (?), so much so that I can't quite conceptualize what it's like to not think in this way – can others just subtly keep way more items in their working memory at once? If so, how can they maintain any significant level of focus without "tightening" their field of view to exclude certain things? From my perspective, monotropism is almost to be expected as normal in 90%+ of people. Then again, I may just be extrapolating from my own experience, but if I'm really wrong and only a small % of the populace employs this thinking strategy, I'd be truly dumbfounded.
- lcnPylGDnU4H9OF 3y ago
  When you're doing something simple like washing the dishes or similar, does it irritate you when someone interrupts you with a reasonable request, like just to ask what you want for dinner? (This has a more specific definition but many think it stems from monotropism: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pathological_demand_avoidance https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pathological_demand_avoidance. It's also a common trait to see in autistic people (who commonly take issue with the name).) Does washing the dishes not sound simple and instead sound like something which would take a fair amount of focus to make sure you're doing it right? It does for me, at any rate.
  - swozey 3y ago
    I feel like I'm sort of like this but it's because I'm ADHD and if I happen to be doing the laundry it's probably because I walked by it for the last week, finally noticed it's inattention and wanted to do it RIGHT NOW before I forget about it for another week or until I need clothes. I'm reading this article you posted because I wasn't sure of any of this terminology and I never have panic attacks or anything like that, though. I more or less just get startled and want a quick back and forth so I can get right back to it. Definitely could occasionally from off as snappy. Dishes I also forget about unless I do them immediately. So same thing, when I finally walk by the sink and notice them I hyper focus and knock them out super quick like I'm in the zone. This paragraph is confusing me, first PDA is totally bad at all of the bullet points but if PDA is not diagnosed with classic autism spectrum it's actually all positive social stuff? Sounds strange. > Although PDA has its own traits that are separate from autism, people with PDA generally meet the diagnostic criteria by having significant difficulties in social interaction and communication.[1] Alternatively, they may instead be diagnosed with ODD.[1] Those who propose that PDA should be a separate diagnosis from classic autism spectrum disorders, observed that, compared to children with classic autism, those with PDA: * are more sociable * have better social skills and social understanding * use apparently socially manipulative and shocking behaviour[3][4] * are more interested in people than objects * are more comfortable with pretend play, and * are more imaginative
mpol 3y ago
A strange thing about that wikipedia page is, the theory was posited as central to autism, but there is no research cited from after 2010. If it is so central to the autism spectrum, howcome this article is just a bit more than a stub.
- ajkjk 3y ago
  Perhaps no one has updated it.
- 15457345234 3y ago
  User-contributed documentation on the internet related to autism is slanted in a way you wouldn't necessarily expect; many people with autism consider the condition an 'identity' rather than a 'diagnosis' and they also tend to be what's colloquially known as 'terminally online.' That results in a rather hostile environment for those who wish to label, discuss, contribute etc to the documentation of the subject. In a similar way the frequently-online Deaf community is remarkably hostile to the idea of cochlear implants in a way that you just don't see among the less-online deaf community.
  - Doxin 3y ago
    Add to that the tendency for medical professionals to ignore the lived experience of people with autism and it's a recipe for disagreement.
  - simondotau 3y ago
    > many people with autism consider the condition an 'identity' rather than a 'diagnosis' To many people with autism, it’s the people without autism which seem in need of a diagnosis.
    - 15457345234 3y ago
      Yeah I know there's a bunch of them that think neurotypicals would benefit from an empathectomy; not my favourite sort of people. But I won't start.
austin-cheney 3y ago
Based upon my observations of a family member an ideal description of autism is constant signal overload that results in faulty assumptions, often hasty or convenient to the moment. The result is decisions that are remarkably short of the careful considerations nominally applied, and taken for granted, by neurotypical people as well as many unfounded fears. My other observation is that this behavior is entirely unrelated to intelligence but it does dictate personality indexes, for example higher neuroticism and lower conscientiousness. I suspect many people incorrectly assume the monotropism as a factor because of an over simplification in isolation.
renewiltord 3y ago
I'm sure things like these are quite common in normal humans. I have a bunch of odd behavioural characteristics too that overlap with mental conditions: clanging, rocking and stimming, and until my mid-20s if I 'touched' something (including stepping on a tile-edge or crack at an angle) on my one side I had to symmetrify with the other side. But my life was fine. I was and am a successful adult with a job and life. Many of these things are probably just the normal variation of the species. I only found out these are named behaviours within the last year. Till then, it was just things I did sometimes or at some time in the past. I imagine many others are also like this and have single or few such things. It progresses to being a disorder when people can't function, but when they can, it's probably just a trait.
- NoZebra120vClip 3y ago
  Yes, it's odd: I had several debilitating behaviors and symptoms for decades, and nobody had ever identified them with me, so I hadn't discussed them or tried to ameliorate them. For example: anxiety. I've always suffered from quite debilitating anxiety, which has verged into hypertension, panic attacks, and assorted complications by now. But 30 years ago, nobody was discussing this basic trouble with me, and so I had no tools for even recognizing it, much less reducing its impact on my life. I was homeless/poor/unemployed for a long, long time, and intellectually I had no satisfying explanation of how I got into those situations. Once I was able to deeply reflect on myself and identify some root causes, and then gain tools to work on those debilitating symptoms, I was much better equipped to fashion a better life, some realistic goals, and a future for myself.
furyofantares 3y ago
> In particular, the descriptions of monotropism[0] feel like a personal attack. :) In what way, can you explain, does it feel like a personal attack?
- Liquix 3y ago
  a tongue-in-cheek phrase. parent comment is just saying "woah, this concept describes me perfectly" - not "I feel personally hurt while reading this".
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
donutpepperoni 3y ago
First time in the wild I've seen someone else reference monotropism- I also feel like it describes me to a t. Thanks for sharing your experience here. Hope you're getting along ok :)
- lcnPylGDnU4H9OF 3y ago
  Yeah, I encountered it once in comments here, and then a bit more recently as I was doing research. It’s interesting that it’s not more widely discussed but I suspect it’s just because it’s not well-studied. > Hope you're getting along ok :) Thanks! It certainly helps to have a clearer idea of the differences (or potential differences as I try to remind myself) in how I think compared to how others think. I’m glad you feel confidence in the idea as well! I’ve seen it elsewhere but it’s always nice to have this independently “agreed upon” (since I don’t quite want to call it “confirmed”).
- Fnoord 3y ago
  There's a word describing that: geek.
Aurornis 3y ago
> Now just to find a competent neurologist who's willing to run a brain scan. FYI: Autism isn’t diagnosed by brain imaging. It’s an area of active research and there have been a few small studies from researchers claiming progress with fMRI techniques, but there is no current imaging test a doctor can order to check you for autism. So if you do find a neurologist who claims to be able to diagnose you by brain scan, you should actually leave that doctor and find a better one.
- lcnPylGDnU4H9OF 3y ago
  That was a bit tongue-in-cheek; mostly I don’t expect current diagnostic tests to be effective, especially considering how often people will suggest to get many opinions. I have heard that certain patterns can be seen in the brain activity of autistic people as early as the age of 2. The progress which has been claimed by researchers, I presume. I do expect that to be a more consistent diagnosis option in the future but, to your point, that may just be wishful thinking.
  - Fnoord 3y ago
    Many opinions? Huh? We both have autism diagnosis and there are so many traits we recognize in our children (5 y.o. female, 3 y.o. male) that in a few years during a heteroanamnesis they also will surely ding ding the boxes. From stimmung to all kind of other behavior we also expressed in our youth. But we remained undiagnosed until well into adulthood and we want our children to land more softly than that.
    - lcnPylGDnU4H9OF 3y ago
      “Many opinions” meaning to include many medical professionals in the process. “Many” being “more than one” because I’m a sort-of DBA professionally. I just mean that I commonly hear the advice to get a second or third opinion, or otherwise to involve a team of professionals, were one to seek a diagnosis.
      - Fnoord 3y ago
Fnoord 3y ago
I'm diagnosed. No brain scan required, but heteroanamnesis was. People who know you well like your parents or partner will be extensively interviewed. As well as yourself, and you (and they) will get many questionnaires which will be cross referenced. Doesn't feel like an insult at all to me. But then again I've long ago accepted the way I am (society does not). The way I feel is constantly between bored and overloaded. Simple tasks can overload, yet complex matter or social settings (birthdays, dinner, chrores, etc) can bore me. I have this with programming but also putting the dishes in the dishwasher but also in gaming. There are too many possibilities. Yet I really dig the freedom to explore the puzzles. Because if the sandbox is too strict, I feel trapped. Which is why vi is a great editor but also one I will never fully master. And that's OK; c'est la vi.
- lcnPylGDnU4H9OF 3y ago
  > Doesn't feel like an insult at all to me. That’s too funny. I should have known better! I didn’t mean it literally as a personal attack. This comment describes how I meant it: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39050062 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39050062. I definitely appreciate that it was taken literally. I often do that unless I’ve already encountered the phrase.
- wkat4242 3y ago
  That sounds very familiar. Either being bored or completely overloaded. Both are pretty demotivating unfortunately.
- SequoiaHope 3y ago
  I had such a hard time researching autism after someone mentioned it might apply to me because I found most articles to be very stigmatizing. A lot of language like "ASD is a developmental disorder that impairs a person's ability to communicate" etc. Looking for actual examples now, I am seeing more nuanced language (eg "People with ASD may respond differently to the world"), but the stigmatizing language I previously found really put me off of it for a long time. Slowly I have embraced my differences as somehow on the spectrum, but I still sort of have this feeling of "different people are different" and I question whether pathologizing differences is that useful. Though I do hear people who say that diagnosis was helpful to them.
RobRivera 3y ago
DAMNIT it me.
smeej 3y ago
I don't know if this will be helpful to you specifically, or maybe just someone else who reads these comments, but I also thought for years that I was autistic, without having been formally diagnosed. Even my mother thought so when I explained it to her. Difficulty reading social cues, sensory overwhelm, robotic affect and processing--all totally normal for me. In my case, I later discovered that early childhood trauma's symptoms can often mimic autism, especially if the perpetrator is the type of gaslighter who denies that they meant what every nonverbal cue suggested they meant. Even the sensory overwhelm can happen because of trauma, because if you were not safe when your neural pathways were forming, you may have learned to pay keener attention to your environment looking for threats, at the same time that your parasympathetic nervous system never developed the normal ability to down-regulate your stress responses because the threat was never really over. There's every chance you specifically are an autistic adult who's never been diagnosed, or who just has autism-like traits. I just want to bring it up for anyone for whom it might be helpful.
- Fnoord 3y ago
  Why not both?
  - smeej 3y ago
    It could be both. Thanks for that reminder. In my case, it turned out not to be, as working through the trauma eliminated the symptoms that had previously been interpreted as caused by autism, but it's certainly possible to be both autistic and a trauma survivor.
- wkat4242 3y ago
  I'm also not diagnosed but I certainly have some traits. Especially Asperger traits. I'm not sure if I have it either. I've asked some professionals and they all tended towards no, though most were a long time ago. Personally I think yes. Someone else said it could be ADHD which I also have some overlap with but also not a strong match. But I'm not going out of my way to label it. I'm clearly not neurotypical but whatever label I put on it doesn't really change that. Learning to live with it does make it a lot more bearable though.
wegfawefgawefg 3y ago
Neurotypical people are overwhelmingly monotropic. Humans will often focus largely on the social aspect of the conversation at the cost of reason. Walk for an hour and not notice 99% of the information around them. Internal systems that select points of interest in the data coming in aim monotropism. It is an intended feature not a bug. I don't think it has anything to do with autism.
- lcnPylGDnU4H9OF 3y ago
  I struggle to disagree, actually. It makes me wonder if the observations which we refer to as autism are really just observations of the differences people have with where they choose to focus their attention. That doesn’t explain the particularly debilitating experiences that some suffer but it may explain how others can relate so strongly but still hold down a job. Anyway, I haven’t really heard of “polytropism”. Maybe nobody thinks that way. I don’t know how much that topic has been explored.
  - wegfawefgawefg 3y ago
    We likely wont have a strong theory of how brain architecture results in unique emergent temperments and subjective experiences until weve got data collected from millions of people with chips in their head, and a large database to work with. Until then, I will remain agnostic on any theory unless it is very obviously causal.
    - 0xEF 3y ago
      This is an interesting take that I hadn't considered the reality of, before. We rely a lot on self-reporting but only for lack of a better option that doesn't violate ethical conventions. Self-reporting is subjective, making the data shakey at best, but even an objective observer can misinterpret what is being observed. I'm mot much of a scientist or philosopher, but that seems like a remarkably large problem when it comes to truly understanding the human brain. How does neuroscience get around this problem, and how close are we to actual "brain chips" that could provide viable diagnostic data?
- 3y ago
xwolfi 3y ago
Depends: I m probably the opposite of someone with autism: I love chatting with strangers, I can dance with girls in clubs until 8am on a whim at the despair of my gf, I m very chatty in general and overshare. I suffer strongly when I see others suffer so I probably have working mirror neurons (empathy). I seek social connections and moved to Hong Kong to be surrounded by dense population rather than feel so lonely in Paris. This immigration adventure was the highlight of my life and I enjoyed tremendously the danger, the unknown, the overloading of things to do and learn. Yet, I feel connected to monotropism in some way: I can only get interested almost obsessively in one thing at a time and completely forget and disregard anything and anyone else. It s very annoying for people around me and many find me autistic somehow, geeky at best. All Im saying is, either it s really what a "spectrum" is or it s just a sort of common human traits. Us programmers had to be a bit obsessed with computers to dedicate most of our waking time to it, and everyone here is probably sharing this trait, none of us being really autists and may sound disrespectful or misguided calling ourselves so ?
- lcnPylGDnU4H9OF 3y ago
  > I suffer strongly when I see others suffer (empathy) It might be worth looking more into this. I’d describe myself similarly and I’ve heard it described similarly: > Many autistic individuals report feelings of excessive empathy, yet their experience is not reflected by most of the current literature, typically suggesting that autism is characterized by intact emotional and reduced cognitive empathy. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC9804307/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC9804307/ The rest is very interesting! It might be a bit “exposing”, if you’ll pardon the pun, but there are many “masking” behaviors an autistic person might learn. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Masking_(personality) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Masking_(personality) It’s also not unheard of for autistic people to live healthy social lives and even engage socially to varying degrees. I wouldn’t discount it even based on the all-night clubbing given what I’ve read but that’s definitely getting way more into my personal opinion and factually exceptional territory for those who’ve been formally diagnosed. (Not trying to lead you too strongly. Just offering information in case you haven’t encountered it. You know how you think better than anyone else!) The point about “spectrum” or “regular” is interesting too. I think that’s kinda why I find this monotropism vs. “polytropism?” idea so fascinating. I want to hear about the other thing more, at this point -- assuming it exists. It feels like a good topic to explore more. Edit: Just caught this too: > I m very chatty in general and overshare This can also describe an autistic person’s social behavior. Generally, I’ve read it manifests as talking a bit too much about a topic they’re interested in, possibly even irritating others with their focus on it. (A lot of “me irl” stuff in this personally.) I’ll even go out on a limb and guess you’ve been accused multiple times of “dominating a conversation”. Correct me if I’m wrong! Anyway, it just makes me wonder more about the real differences in how people think. Why does that sort of disagreement even happen?
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]

mrangle 3y ago

Differential diagnosis for adult type 1 autism is really tricky. Due to the fact that so many symptoms are shared with other diagnoses. In addition to monotropism, you'd want to find at least one or two other differentiating traits that are not commonly shared with other diagnoses. You can probably do much of that research and introspection on your own. At least to the point of getting more of a head start. The clinical option is a team diagnosis, which will be expensive. You'd want to weigh what the benefits vs risks (cost, medical records, etc) are for formal diagnosis vs informal (yourself as diagnostician). Especially considering lack of direct treatments.

tudorw 3y ago
A rightly sensitive and complex subject all round, for some reasons I have acquaintances seek my counsel on this subject and in the absence of a diagnosis, which can be hard to get, I suggest applying any of the no harm mitigating strategies often suggested where possible, if it works, you'll probably recognise that, then you can make adaptations with your control at least, a formal diagnosis might not make as much difference as one might feel it should.
- pbhjpbhj 3y ago
  >I suggest applying any of the no harm mitigating strategies often suggested where possible // Such as? Thanks.
  - mrglick 3y ago
    There are a lot of therapies that can be helpful for people on the autism spectrum and aren’t harmful. One example might be helping people learn how to get out of “Defense Mode”, as advocated by https://www.aspergerexperts.com https://www.aspergerexperts.com (there’s a bit of a sales vibe here since they are a business, but the general perspective has proven very helpful to me as a parent of someone on the spectrum). It’s true that these same therapies might generally be helpful for all people, but that’s why it’s a spectrum.
  - tudorw 3y ago
    Here is some signposting; https://www.autism.org.uk/advice-and-guidance/topics/strategies-and-interventions https://www.autism.org.uk/advice-and-guidance/topics/strateg...
Fnoord 3y ago
I had a team diagnosis. Cost depends on where you live. Here in NL there's a waiting list (adult nearly a year pre-corona, since corona kids even longer) and you'll burn through your medical "own risk" (currently IIRC 485 EUR a year) but you might already burn through that and they tried to fit in as much as possible in a year (besides the diagnosis also counseling). We both had a different diagnosis before our current. The thing is: diagnoses can co-exist but the other ones stem from autism. Autism is the root of the problem (or the roit of being if ya wanna word with cup half full). Ever since we got our diagnoses our life has been in full motion once again. Though we also became parents right after (twice) and that alone is a rollercoaster.

ssalka 3y ago

My way of thinking tends to be monotropic (?), so much so that I can't quite conceptualize what it's like to not think in this way – can others just subtly keep way more items in their working memory at once? If so, how can they maintain any significant level of focus without "tightening" their field of view to exclude certain things? From my perspective, monotropism is almost to be expected as normal in 90%+ of people. Then again, I may just be extrapolating from my own experience, but if I'm really wrong and only a small % of the populace employs this thinking strategy, I'd be truly dumbfounded.

lcnPylGDnU4H9OF 3y ago
When you're doing something simple like washing the dishes or similar, does it irritate you when someone interrupts you with a reasonable request, like just to ask what you want for dinner? (This has a more specific definition but many think it stems from monotropism: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pathological_demand_avoidance https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pathological_demand_avoidance. It's also a common trait to see in autistic people (who commonly take issue with the name).) Does washing the dishes not sound simple and instead sound like something which would take a fair amount of focus to make sure you're doing it right? It does for me, at any rate.
- swozey 3y ago
  I feel like I'm sort of like this but it's because I'm ADHD and if I happen to be doing the laundry it's probably because I walked by it for the last week, finally noticed it's inattention and wanted to do it RIGHT NOW before I forget about it for another week or until I need clothes. I'm reading this article you posted because I wasn't sure of any of this terminology and I never have panic attacks or anything like that, though. I more or less just get startled and want a quick back and forth so I can get right back to it. Definitely could occasionally from off as snappy. Dishes I also forget about unless I do them immediately. So same thing, when I finally walk by the sink and notice them I hyper focus and knock them out super quick like I'm in the zone. This paragraph is confusing me, first PDA is totally bad at all of the bullet points but if PDA is not diagnosed with classic autism spectrum it's actually all positive social stuff? Sounds strange. > Although PDA has its own traits that are separate from autism, people with PDA generally meet the diagnostic criteria by having significant difficulties in social interaction and communication.[1] Alternatively, they may instead be diagnosed with ODD.[1] Those who propose that PDA should be a separate diagnosis from classic autism spectrum disorders, observed that, compared to children with classic autism, those with PDA: * are more sociable * have better social skills and social understanding * use apparently socially manipulative and shocking behaviour[3][4] * are more interested in people than objects * are more comfortable with pretend play, and * are more imaginative

mpol 3y ago

A strange thing about that wikipedia page is, the theory was posited as central to autism, but there is no research cited from after 2010. If it is so central to the autism spectrum, howcome this article is just a bit more than a stub.

ajkjk 3y ago
Perhaps no one has updated it.
15457345234 3y ago
User-contributed documentation on the internet related to autism is slanted in a way you wouldn't necessarily expect; many people with autism consider the condition an 'identity' rather than a 'diagnosis' and they also tend to be what's colloquially known as 'terminally online.' That results in a rather hostile environment for those who wish to label, discuss, contribute etc to the documentation of the subject. In a similar way the frequently-online Deaf community is remarkably hostile to the idea of cochlear implants in a way that you just don't see among the less-online deaf community.
- Doxin 3y ago
  Add to that the tendency for medical professionals to ignore the lived experience of people with autism and it's a recipe for disagreement.
- simondotau 3y ago
  > many people with autism consider the condition an 'identity' rather than a 'diagnosis' To many people with autism, it’s the people without autism which seem in need of a diagnosis.
  - 15457345234 3y ago
    Yeah I know there's a bunch of them that think neurotypicals would benefit from an empathectomy; not my favourite sort of people. But I won't start.

austin-cheney 3y ago

Based upon my observations of a family member an ideal description of autism is constant signal overload that results in faulty assumptions, often hasty or convenient to the moment. The result is decisions that are remarkably short of the careful considerations nominally applied, and taken for granted, by neurotypical people as well as many unfounded fears. My other observation is that this behavior is entirely unrelated to intelligence but it does dictate personality indexes, for example higher neuroticism and lower conscientiousness. I suspect many people incorrectly assume the monotropism as a factor because of an over simplification in isolation.

renewiltord 3y ago

I'm sure things like these are quite common in normal humans. I have a bunch of odd behavioural characteristics too that overlap with mental conditions: clanging, rocking and stimming, and until my mid-20s if I 'touched' something (including stepping on a tile-edge or crack at an angle) on my one side I had to symmetrify with the other side. But my life was fine. I was and am a successful adult with a job and life. Many of these things are probably just the normal variation of the species. I only found out these are named behaviours within the last year. Till then, it was just things I did sometimes or at some time in the past. I imagine many others are also like this and have single or few such things. It progresses to being a disorder when people can't function, but when they can, it's probably just a trait.

NoZebra120vClip 3y ago
Yes, it's odd: I had several debilitating behaviors and symptoms for decades, and nobody had ever identified them with me, so I hadn't discussed them or tried to ameliorate them. For example: anxiety. I've always suffered from quite debilitating anxiety, which has verged into hypertension, panic attacks, and assorted complications by now. But 30 years ago, nobody was discussing this basic trouble with me, and so I had no tools for even recognizing it, much less reducing its impact on my life. I was homeless/poor/unemployed for a long, long time, and intellectually I had no satisfying explanation of how I got into those situations. Once I was able to deeply reflect on myself and identify some root causes, and then gain tools to work on those debilitating symptoms, I was much better equipped to fashion a better life, some realistic goals, and a future for myself.

furyofantares 3y ago

> In particular, the descriptions of monotropism[0] feel like a personal attack. :) In what way, can you explain, does it feel like a personal attack?

Liquix 3y ago
a tongue-in-cheek phrase. parent comment is just saying "woah, this concept describes me perfectly" - not "I feel personally hurt while reading this".
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]

donutpepperoni 3y ago

First time in the wild I've seen someone else reference monotropism- I also feel like it describes me to a t. Thanks for sharing your experience here. Hope you're getting along ok :)

lcnPylGDnU4H9OF 3y ago
Yeah, I encountered it once in comments here, and then a bit more recently as I was doing research. It’s interesting that it’s not more widely discussed but I suspect it’s just because it’s not well-studied. > Hope you're getting along ok :) Thanks! It certainly helps to have a clearer idea of the differences (or potential differences as I try to remind myself) in how I think compared to how others think. I’m glad you feel confidence in the idea as well! I’ve seen it elsewhere but it’s always nice to have this independently “agreed upon” (since I don’t quite want to call it “confirmed”).
Fnoord 3y ago
There's a word describing that: geek.

Aurornis 3y ago

> Now just to find a competent neurologist who's willing to run a brain scan. FYI: Autism isn’t diagnosed by brain imaging. It’s an area of active research and there have been a few small studies from researchers claiming progress with fMRI techniques, but there is no current imaging test a doctor can order to check you for autism. So if you do find a neurologist who claims to be able to diagnose you by brain scan, you should actually leave that doctor and find a better one.

lcnPylGDnU4H9OF 3y ago
That was a bit tongue-in-cheek; mostly I don’t expect current diagnostic tests to be effective, especially considering how often people will suggest to get many opinions. I have heard that certain patterns can be seen in the brain activity of autistic people as early as the age of 2. The progress which has been claimed by researchers, I presume. I do expect that to be a more consistent diagnosis option in the future but, to your point, that may just be wishful thinking.
- Fnoord 3y ago
  Many opinions? Huh? We both have autism diagnosis and there are so many traits we recognize in our children (5 y.o. female, 3 y.o. male) that in a few years during a heteroanamnesis they also will surely ding ding the boxes. From stimmung to all kind of other behavior we also expressed in our youth. But we remained undiagnosed until well into adulthood and we want our children to land more softly than that.
  - lcnPylGDnU4H9OF 3y ago
    “Many opinions” meaning to include many medical professionals in the process. “Many” being “more than one” because I’m a sort-of DBA professionally. I just mean that I commonly hear the advice to get a second or third opinion, or otherwise to involve a team of professionals, were one to seek a diagnosis.
    - Fnoord 3y ago

Fnoord 3y ago

I'm diagnosed. No brain scan required, but heteroanamnesis was. People who know you well like your parents or partner will be extensively interviewed. As well as yourself, and you (and they) will get many questionnaires which will be cross referenced. Doesn't feel like an insult at all to me. But then again I've long ago accepted the way I am (society does not). The way I feel is constantly between bored and overloaded. Simple tasks can overload, yet complex matter or social settings (birthdays, dinner, chrores, etc) can bore me. I have this with programming but also putting the dishes in the dishwasher but also in gaming. There are too many possibilities. Yet I really dig the freedom to explore the puzzles. Because if the sandbox is too strict, I feel trapped. Which is why vi is a great editor but also one I will never fully master. And that's OK; c'est la vi.

lcnPylGDnU4H9OF 3y ago
> Doesn't feel like an insult at all to me. That’s too funny. I should have known better! I didn’t mean it literally as a personal attack. This comment describes how I meant it: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39050062 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39050062. I definitely appreciate that it was taken literally. I often do that unless I’ve already encountered the phrase.
wkat4242 3y ago
That sounds very familiar. Either being bored or completely overloaded. Both are pretty demotivating unfortunately.
SequoiaHope 3y ago
I had such a hard time researching autism after someone mentioned it might apply to me because I found most articles to be very stigmatizing. A lot of language like "ASD is a developmental disorder that impairs a person's ability to communicate" etc. Looking for actual examples now, I am seeing more nuanced language (eg "People with ASD may respond differently to the world"), but the stigmatizing language I previously found really put me off of it for a long time. Slowly I have embraced my differences as somehow on the spectrum, but I still sort of have this feeling of "different people are different" and I question whether pathologizing differences is that useful. Though I do hear people who say that diagnosis was helpful to them.

RobRivera 3y ago

DAMNIT it me.

smeej 3y ago

I don't know if this will be helpful to you specifically, or maybe just someone else who reads these comments, but I also thought for years that I was autistic, without having been formally diagnosed. Even my mother thought so when I explained it to her. Difficulty reading social cues, sensory overwhelm, robotic affect and processing--all totally normal for me. In my case, I later discovered that early childhood trauma's symptoms can often mimic autism, especially if the perpetrator is the type of gaslighter who denies that they meant what every nonverbal cue suggested they meant. Even the sensory overwhelm can happen because of trauma, because if you were not safe when your neural pathways were forming, you may have learned to pay keener attention to your environment looking for threats, at the same time that your parasympathetic nervous system never developed the normal ability to down-regulate your stress responses because the threat was never really over. There's every chance you specifically are an autistic adult who's never been diagnosed, or who just has autism-like traits. I just want to bring it up for anyone for whom it might be helpful.

Fnoord 3y ago
Why not both?
- smeej 3y ago
  It could be both. Thanks for that reminder. In my case, it turned out not to be, as working through the trauma eliminated the symptoms that had previously been interpreted as caused by autism, but it's certainly possible to be both autistic and a trauma survivor.
wkat4242 3y ago
I'm also not diagnosed but I certainly have some traits. Especially Asperger traits. I'm not sure if I have it either. I've asked some professionals and they all tended towards no, though most were a long time ago. Personally I think yes. Someone else said it could be ADHD which I also have some overlap with but also not a strong match. But I'm not going out of my way to label it. I'm clearly not neurotypical but whatever label I put on it doesn't really change that. Learning to live with it does make it a lot more bearable though.

wegfawefgawefg 3y ago

Neurotypical people are overwhelmingly monotropic. Humans will often focus largely on the social aspect of the conversation at the cost of reason. Walk for an hour and not notice 99% of the information around them. Internal systems that select points of interest in the data coming in aim monotropism. It is an intended feature not a bug. I don't think it has anything to do with autism.

lcnPylGDnU4H9OF 3y ago
I struggle to disagree, actually. It makes me wonder if the observations which we refer to as autism are really just observations of the differences people have with where they choose to focus their attention. That doesn’t explain the particularly debilitating experiences that some suffer but it may explain how others can relate so strongly but still hold down a job. Anyway, I haven’t really heard of “polytropism”. Maybe nobody thinks that way. I don’t know how much that topic has been explored.
- wegfawefgawefg 3y ago
  We likely wont have a strong theory of how brain architecture results in unique emergent temperments and subjective experiences until weve got data collected from millions of people with chips in their head, and a large database to work with. Until then, I will remain agnostic on any theory unless it is very obviously causal.
  - 0xEF 3y ago
    This is an interesting take that I hadn't considered the reality of, before. We rely a lot on self-reporting but only for lack of a better option that doesn't violate ethical conventions. Self-reporting is subjective, making the data shakey at best, but even an objective observer can misinterpret what is being observed. I'm mot much of a scientist or philosopher, but that seems like a remarkably large problem when it comes to truly understanding the human brain. How does neuroscience get around this problem, and how close are we to actual "brain chips" that could provide viable diagnostic data?
3y ago

xwolfi 3y ago

Depends: I m probably the opposite of someone with autism: I love chatting with strangers, I can dance with girls in clubs until 8am on a whim at the despair of my gf, I m very chatty in general and overshare. I suffer strongly when I see others suffer so I probably have working mirror neurons (empathy). I seek social connections and moved to Hong Kong to be surrounded by dense population rather than feel so lonely in Paris. This immigration adventure was the highlight of my life and I enjoyed tremendously the danger, the unknown, the overloading of things to do and learn. Yet, I feel connected to monotropism in some way: I can only get interested almost obsessively in one thing at a time and completely forget and disregard anything and anyone else. It s very annoying for people around me and many find me autistic somehow, geeky at best. All Im saying is, either it s really what a "spectrum" is or it s just a sort of common human traits. Us programmers had to be a bit obsessed with computers to dedicate most of our waking time to it, and everyone here is probably sharing this trait, none of us being really autists and may sound disrespectful or misguided calling ourselves so ?

lcnPylGDnU4H9OF 3y ago
> I suffer strongly when I see others suffer (empathy) It might be worth looking more into this. I’d describe myself similarly and I’ve heard it described similarly: > Many autistic individuals report feelings of excessive empathy, yet their experience is not reflected by most of the current literature, typically suggesting that autism is characterized by intact emotional and reduced cognitive empathy. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC9804307/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC9804307/ The rest is very interesting! It might be a bit “exposing”, if you’ll pardon the pun, but there are many “masking” behaviors an autistic person might learn. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Masking_(personality) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Masking_(personality) It’s also not unheard of for autistic people to live healthy social lives and even engage socially to varying degrees. I wouldn’t discount it even based on the all-night clubbing given what I’ve read but that’s definitely getting way more into my personal opinion and factually exceptional territory for those who’ve been formally diagnosed. (Not trying to lead you too strongly. Just offering information in case you haven’t encountered it. You know how you think better than anyone else!) The point about “spectrum” or “regular” is interesting too. I think that’s kinda why I find this monotropism vs. “polytropism?” idea so fascinating. I want to hear about the other thing more, at this point -- assuming it exists. It feels like a good topic to explore more. Edit: Just caught this too: > I m very chatty in general and overshare This can also describe an autistic person’s social behavior. Generally, I’ve read it manifests as talking a bit too much about a topic they’re interested in, possibly even irritating others with their focus on it. (A lot of “me irl” stuff in this personally.) I’ll even go out on a limb and guess you’ve been accused multiple times of “dominating a conversation”. Correct me if I’m wrong! Anyway, it just makes me wonder more about the real differences in how people think. Why does that sort of disagreement even happen?

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