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Bro what sort of dystopiian offices have you been working in. I've never had that experience. People are always somewhat intersting and like to actually talk. T

Bro what sort of dystopiian offices have you been working in. I've never had that experience. People are always somewhat intersting and like to actually talk. There are some off days but it's never like that. And never ever have I had a colleague spontaneously try to have casual zoom conversation with me while remotely working. I've had people never turn their cameras on. And meanwhile, I'm here, a childless 20-sth, not having spoken to a human in days, wanting to hang myself with my headphone cable. The pro-wfh people just don't care that young people are still growing up in this time I swear.

mlrtime 3y ago
For every positive that I can possibly read about in office work. Not one can combat my horrible situation of working next to a colleague with post nasal drip. Imagine every 60s hearing the sound of phlegm being sucked through a throat. I have sympathy for this person, but I can't work in this environment. Headphones can't be worn 8 hours a day.
- helboi4 3y ago
  That's an insanely specific situation that could be remedied by getting your seat moved. Loads of offices have hot desks these days anyway. What I'm talking about - young people having no chance to build a network of peers because the end of their university years were ruined by COVID and now they are expected to work from home without interacting with humans ever, leading to severely negative mental health outcomes - is ubiquitous to all remote working situations. the only solution to it is some level of compulsory office attendance. it is only since i move to an office with 3 days semi-compulsory that I have started to talk to people regularly again and regained the ability to work efficiently and not want to die.
  - mlrtime 3y ago
    Agreed, young people coming up in their career are at a disadvantage working remotely. My story is an anecdote, and moving seats was not an option. For this situation I might as well be remote if I'm not next to the team.
    - helboi4 3y ago
      Yes, your story is an isolated and minor anecdote and my story is a massive social ill that I am furious that older people want to overlook and then wonder why younger peoples mental health and productivity is getting constantly worse. So I don't appreciate you bringing up your anecdote as if it has any relevance to what I'm saying. p.s. I spend most of my working day with headphones on, it is perfectly possible.
      - mlrtime 3y ago
        You're lack of appreciation maybe related to your fury. Younger peoples mental health has a lot more to do with wasting time in a office, but you can keep thinking that if it helps. I'd wager that younger people could learn a bit from older in this area. In the end, we do what we think is best and I'll continue heavily advocating for remote work. Good luck!
        helboi4 3y ago
        Nah mate, you pulled that one out of nowhere. It's pretty widely understood our mental health issues are due to lonliness and social isolation and social media (fake virtual socialising) mate.
        lloeki 3y ago
        That is true. There is a distinction to be made between loneliness and solitude though. One can feel hopelessly lonely in a crowd, one can also find great solace in solitude. In fact, another great cause of mental health issues is the apparently growing inability for people to stay still, instead constantly vying for interaction (and often resorting to that quick virtual dopamine hit loop, sometimes even when face to face) There's balance to be had, both ways, but not everyone have the same needs.
        helboi4 3y ago
        I'm very aware you can be lonely in a crowd and find solace in solitude. I've done both. I'm talking about my real-life experience here not a hypothetical. Working 100% remotely as a young person trying to find your place in the world is crushingly lonely. Choosing sometimes to spend my weekend just doing my solo hobbies while other people are going out, without giving into fomo, is solace in solitude. I agree, not everyone has the same needs. But I think on average the majority of people would benefit from or would be able to handle a mandatory hybrid situation. If a few fully remote jobs remained that may satisfy the few unusual people who are actually that disturbed by social interaction, or live in such odd locations that it's not possible for them, that would be great. And I am absolutely sure those opportunities will remain. But I think it is bad for humans to aim for a mainly remote working world, both for our mental health and for the dynamism of our collaborative work. I really believe that people who genuinely thrive significantly better in 100% remote vs a couple days in the office are less than 10% of the population. We are social animals and we increase our risk of dementia the less we socialise, it's just our biology.
RGamma 3y ago
Why not have a Teamspeak/Discord like system where you can hang around all day in various rooms (e.g. virtual bureaus) and do the "office chit chat"? The meeting model is more like phone calls and, while I adore WFH, not well suited for that.
- helboi4 3y ago
  1) I'm not a robot. Humans exist in physical space and it is necessary for our mental health to see other people in person. We cannot get our social battery filled by virtual interaction alone. 2) Otther people don't participate in these things very often when I try to suggest them. People naturally talk to each other in physical spaces. Therefore, the solution is the office.
  - RGamma 3y ago
    1) heavily depends on the person (you seem the extraverted type who seem to suffer the most; for instance I can go weeks without much f2f interaction and not be disturbed by it). And 2), well, that sucks. Needs a suitable culture and the right setup...
    - helboi4 3y ago
      Don't worry I moved to a company where people have to come in 2-3 times a week and the culture is great and I'm not depressed any more. It works much better than any other setup I've tried. My problem with the extraversion/introversion dichotomy is that I'm not either extreme. I am far too introverted to competently fulfil my basic social needs without some form of passive socialising like having an office full of people around me. I don't thrive with going out on the town and making friends like extraverts I know. But I'm definitely not the type of person that can not speak to people for weeks. I think that sort of person is sort of rare and should not be the basis of the entire system. I honestly think that level of introversion is not what most people even mean when they talk about introversion. That is highly unusual and is not how human nature usually works.
      - 3y ago
nostrebored 3y ago
They don’t think about what it’s like for young people to onboard. You don’t know the culture. You don’t know anyone. Your questions are the “useless interruptions” people say they’re happy they get to ignore. It’s very obvious that this is not a sustainable approach for most companies. Some companies will get remote culture right and get access to a niche of the employee market. Overall, things will shift back to in person quickly. Look at startups at top VCs.
- helboi4 3y ago
  Yeah asking questions on slack or sth feels so much more like you're imposing on people than just saying sth out loud or shadowing someone a bit organically in person.
lloeki 3y ago
> Bro what sort of dystopiian offices have you been working in. There are loads of places like this. The irony is that in such context people enjoy the watercooler talk as an escape from the hellscape that is their 9-5 shitty job, doing everything they can instead of their job to make their experience less miserable. > I've never had that experience. Lucky you. > And never ever have I had a colleague spontaneously try to have casual zoom conversation with me while remotely working. This has happened all the time for me (could be zoom, could be Slack). From scheduled informal chats with teammates to regular chats with close people to members of non-work or work channels of interest to random ones via Donut with yet unknown people, it's lively and on everyone's own terms. > I've had people never turn their cameras on. Ever since I have been remote they all did. If they don't it's either one of the odd low bandwidth situation and they save it for an acceptable audio experience, they're on the move - and open about it, with either an apology about possible noise when speaking thus unmuted or setting expectations about their ability to talk or follow - and audio only "phone mode" is more practical, or they're at home and privacy respecting of their SO or otherwise guest. > And meanwhile, I'm here, a childless 20-sth, not having spoken to a human in days, wanting to hang myself with my headphone cable. I am genuinely empathetic to your situation and am glad to hear from a nearby comment that it has resolved - at least to an extent - and you found an environment where you can be happier. I say so because I realised long ago that people can come from all ways of life and be wildly different in their needs, and having been through similar suffering for something in the order of three decades - only from a symmetrical end - I can relate. And I say "end" and not "side" because it's a continuum, there are no sides, there's no team A vs team B, and it's not a zero sum game. > The pro-wfh people just don't care that young people are still growing up in this time I swear. By and large "pro WFH people" are not arguing that everyone-and-their-dog must WFH, instead that WFH does make sense and is a true net positive for many, and that the recent pro-office-for-everyone discourse that it is inherently more productive because humans is at best loaded with prejudice that fails to take into account a good chunk of actual humans, some raising their voice, others staying silent, and at worst has hidden agenda. The pendulum was mostly stuck one way for aeons, then it progressively moved with the rise of the Internet, and swung full-force with COVID. Now it's swinging back hard the other way. Change is hard, old habits die harder, but I'm hopeful that someday we'll find balance, but for that we need understanding of each other.

mlrtime 3y ago

For every positive that I can possibly read about in office work. Not one can combat my horrible situation of working next to a colleague with post nasal drip. Imagine every 60s hearing the sound of phlegm being sucked through a throat. I have sympathy for this person, but I can't work in this environment. Headphones can't be worn 8 hours a day.

helboi4 3y ago
That's an insanely specific situation that could be remedied by getting your seat moved. Loads of offices have hot desks these days anyway. What I'm talking about - young people having no chance to build a network of peers because the end of their university years were ruined by COVID and now they are expected to work from home without interacting with humans ever, leading to severely negative mental health outcomes - is ubiquitous to all remote working situations. the only solution to it is some level of compulsory office attendance. it is only since i move to an office with 3 days semi-compulsory that I have started to talk to people regularly again and regained the ability to work efficiently and not want to die.
- mlrtime 3y ago
  Agreed, young people coming up in their career are at a disadvantage working remotely. My story is an anecdote, and moving seats was not an option. For this situation I might as well be remote if I'm not next to the team.
  - helboi4 3y ago
    Yes, your story is an isolated and minor anecdote and my story is a massive social ill that I am furious that older people want to overlook and then wonder why younger peoples mental health and productivity is getting constantly worse. So I don't appreciate you bringing up your anecdote as if it has any relevance to what I'm saying. p.s. I spend most of my working day with headphones on, it is perfectly possible.
    - mlrtime 3y ago
      You're lack of appreciation maybe related to your fury. Younger peoples mental health has a lot more to do with wasting time in a office, but you can keep thinking that if it helps. I'd wager that younger people could learn a bit from older in this area. In the end, we do what we think is best and I'll continue heavily advocating for remote work. Good luck!
      - helboi4 3y ago
        Nah mate, you pulled that one out of nowhere. It's pretty widely understood our mental health issues are due to lonliness and social isolation and social media (fake virtual socialising) mate.
        lloeki 3y ago
        That is true. There is a distinction to be made between loneliness and solitude though. One can feel hopelessly lonely in a crowd, one can also find great solace in solitude. In fact, another great cause of mental health issues is the apparently growing inability for people to stay still, instead constantly vying for interaction (and often resorting to that quick virtual dopamine hit loop, sometimes even when face to face) There's balance to be had, both ways, but not everyone have the same needs.
        helboi4 3y ago
        I'm very aware you can be lonely in a crowd and find solace in solitude. I've done both. I'm talking about my real-life experience here not a hypothetical. Working 100% remotely as a young person trying to find your place in the world is crushingly lonely. Choosing sometimes to spend my weekend just doing my solo hobbies while other people are going out, without giving into fomo, is solace in solitude. I agree, not everyone has the same needs. But I think on average the majority of people would benefit from or would be able to handle a mandatory hybrid situation. If a few fully remote jobs remained that may satisfy the few unusual people who are actually that disturbed by social interaction, or live in such odd locations that it's not possible for them, that would be great. And I am absolutely sure those opportunities will remain. But I think it is bad for humans to aim for a mainly remote working world, both for our mental health and for the dynamism of our collaborative work. I really believe that people who genuinely thrive significantly better in 100% remote vs a couple days in the office are less than 10% of the population. We are social animals and we increase our risk of dementia the less we socialise, it's just our biology.

RGamma 3y ago

Why not have a Teamspeak/Discord like system where you can hang around all day in various rooms (e.g. virtual bureaus) and do the "office chit chat"? The meeting model is more like phone calls and, while I adore WFH, not well suited for that.

helboi4 3y ago
1) I'm not a robot. Humans exist in physical space and it is necessary for our mental health to see other people in person. We cannot get our social battery filled by virtual interaction alone. 2) Otther people don't participate in these things very often when I try to suggest them. People naturally talk to each other in physical spaces. Therefore, the solution is the office.
- RGamma 3y ago
  1) heavily depends on the person (you seem the extraverted type who seem to suffer the most; for instance I can go weeks without much f2f interaction and not be disturbed by it). And 2), well, that sucks. Needs a suitable culture and the right setup...
  - helboi4 3y ago
    Don't worry I moved to a company where people have to come in 2-3 times a week and the culture is great and I'm not depressed any more. It works much better than any other setup I've tried. My problem with the extraversion/introversion dichotomy is that I'm not either extreme. I am far too introverted to competently fulfil my basic social needs without some form of passive socialising like having an office full of people around me. I don't thrive with going out on the town and making friends like extraverts I know. But I'm definitely not the type of person that can not speak to people for weeks. I think that sort of person is sort of rare and should not be the basis of the entire system. I honestly think that level of introversion is not what most people even mean when they talk about introversion. That is highly unusual and is not how human nature usually works.
    - 3y ago

nostrebored 3y ago

They don’t think about what it’s like for young people to onboard. You don’t know the culture. You don’t know anyone. Your questions are the “useless interruptions” people say they’re happy they get to ignore. It’s very obvious that this is not a sustainable approach for most companies. Some companies will get remote culture right and get access to a niche of the employee market. Overall, things will shift back to in person quickly. Look at startups at top VCs.

helboi4 3y ago
Yeah asking questions on slack or sth feels so much more like you're imposing on people than just saying sth out loud or shadowing someone a bit organically in person.

lloeki 3y ago

> Bro what sort of dystopiian offices have you been working in. There are loads of places like this. The irony is that in such context people enjoy the watercooler talk as an escape from the hellscape that is their 9-5 shitty job, doing everything they can instead of their job to make their experience less miserable. > I've never had that experience. Lucky you. > And never ever have I had a colleague spontaneously try to have casual zoom conversation with me while remotely working. This has happened all the time for me (could be zoom, could be Slack). From scheduled informal chats with teammates to regular chats with close people to members of non-work or work channels of interest to random ones via Donut with yet unknown people, it's lively and on everyone's own terms. > I've had people never turn their cameras on. Ever since I have been remote they all did. If they don't it's either one of the odd low bandwidth situation and they save it for an acceptable audio experience, they're on the move - and open about it, with either an apology about possible noise when speaking thus unmuted or setting expectations about their ability to talk or follow - and audio only "phone mode" is more practical, or they're at home and privacy respecting of their SO or otherwise guest. > And meanwhile, I'm here, a childless 20-sth, not having spoken to a human in days, wanting to hang myself with my headphone cable. I am genuinely empathetic to your situation and am glad to hear from a nearby comment that it has resolved - at least to an extent - and you found an environment where you can be happier. I say so because I realised long ago that people can come from all ways of life and be wildly different in their needs, and having been through similar suffering for something in the order of three decades - only from a symmetrical end - I can relate. And I say "end" and not "side" because it's a continuum, there are no sides, there's no team A vs team B, and it's not a zero sum game. > The pro-wfh people just don't care that young people are still growing up in this time I swear. By and large "pro WFH people" are not arguing that everyone-and-their-dog must WFH, instead that WFH does make sense and is a true net positive for many, and that the recent pro-office-for-everyone discourse that it is inherently more productive because humans is at best loaded with prejudice that fails to take into account a good chunk of actual humans, some raising their voice, others staying silent, and at worst has hidden agenda. The pendulum was mostly stuck one way for aeons, then it progressively moved with the rise of the Internet, and swung full-force with COVID. Now it's swinging back hard the other way. Change is hard, old habits die harder, but I'm hopeful that someday we'll find balance, but for that we need understanding of each other.