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China Told Women to Have Babies, but Its Population Shrank Again

18 points by propter_hoc 3y ago

maxglute 3y ago
So far only religion has convinced affluent couples to have above replacement >2 babies. Too bad PRC cracked down on cults.
7thaccount 3y ago
Too late. People got used to having very small families both because of the tyrannical policy and because it makes more sense with urbanization. Also, you never know when you might have an accident, so if the limit becomes two, you'll still have one and only have two if there is an accident.
bell-cot 3y ago
Not that the headline is particularly accurate...but where & when has national leadership calling upon women to have more children ever actually worked? (Yes, most of the CCP's brighter members probably understood that it was just performative leadership.) And if you ruthlessly optimize a society for maximum short-term economic output, mostly via short-term individual rewards...um, yes, that does kinda de-emphasize everything that's needed for the society to have much of a very-long-term future, doesn't it?
- AniseAbyss 3y ago
  [dead]
beaeglebeached 3y ago
Raising kids absolutely sucks 99.9% of the time. Society is constantly riding your ass demanding you follow their every law, desire, and regulation and if you do it right no one gives a shit other than to milk the kid dry in taxes for being raised to be productive. If you do it wrong, well there's a jail cell waiting and you lose all your friends and family and live in terrible guilt. The kid, well perhaps rightly the kid thinks he's owed a proper raising so there's no thanks for providing it. It's a suckers game and by the time you're free again you're getting old and evolution is ready to wind you down. Knowing what I do now, I wouldn't do it again.
- AussieWog93 3y ago
  Are you actually a parent? That seems like a very warped view.
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
  - Erratic6576 3y ago
    Yeah people look down on me when I talk like this. It’s like you must love it if you’re going through it. I love my son but caring for a child from nine a.m. to eleven p.m. is exhausting.
- thehappypm 3y ago
  I have a 1-year old and I think, so far, it has sucked about 10% of the time, max.
  - toomuchtodo 3y ago
    I have two toddlers and it has sucked more than it hasn’t (~7 years). ymmv, n=1, all that jazz. Roughly 8-17% of the population regrets having kids (depending on study [1]), and a substantial cohort simply doesn’t want them [2], so it’s not for everyone. [1] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8294566/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8294566/ [2] https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2021/11/19/growing-share-of-childless-adults-in-u-s-dont-expect-to-ever-have-children/ https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2021/11/19/growing-s...
- imacomputer 3y ago
  I don't know man, I know it sounds cliche, but kids were one of the best things that "accidentally" happened to me. Its really not as bad as most people make it out to be. I even got 2 for 1 type deal. Sure there are bad days, but most are good. And maybe someday, when the money is gone, and the pensions are one fire, they will take care of me.
  - 3y ago
thmsths 3y ago
I have come the conclusion that kids have basically gone from asset to liability over the last century. And even if they may not express it in these terms or have hard numbers to back it up, people know this intuitively. In the 1920s there was no social security so having kids to take care of you in your old days was a must, expectations were somewhat low. You could get a lot of kids because making them all share one room was considered fine, they were expected to do a lot of chores, sometimes helping with the family's business even. Contrast that to today: we have financialized everything so you don't need kids, you just need someone to have them, not you specifically. The expectations are high: they need their own bedroom, you have to constantly be behind them (otherwise some busybody will call the cops for neglect), pay for expensive hobbies, tutor them so they can go to a good college (that you're expected to help pay for). Is it really surprising then that people get less or no kids? Of course this quality over quantity approach may actually be a good thing, I certainly appreciate having been raised that way, unfortunately we have structured our societies to expect infinite growth so until we find a way to resolve these conflicting needs we will keep feeling the pain.
- AussieWog93 3y ago
  Not saying you're wrong, but I really think you've overlooked the cultural shift towards individualism. Maybe not so much in the 1920s, but in WW1 men would lie about their age so they'd have the opportunity to fight for the empire. Family, nation and duty came before self-actualisation and security.
  - thmsths 3y ago
    I would not dismiss the link with individualism but I am not convinced that it is a cause, if anything I see it as a consequence. When you are raised as part of a large family with several generations in the same house you probably have a much stronger sense of community than a single kid raised by just two parents.
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
- MR4D 3y ago
supertofu 3y ago
I can see no benefit at all to having children in this day. Parents are expected to engage with their child at all times, and it's no longer socially acceptable to let a child roam the neighborhood as it was when I was a kid. In the US, job insecurity and ridiculous costs of living make having a child a financial burden. The pure physical risk of birth in a healthcare system that does not support postpartum healthcare in any way does not seem worth it.
imacomputer 3y ago
I see both side of the equation here honestly... fyi I have kids, the two for one deal. On one side, kids are tough. It is a commitment, if you are used to a certain lifestyle of travel and individual activities things are going to get significantly tough. Not impossible, but it will probably be different to accommodate others needs. On top of that my wife career has been pushed aside for a few years to help the kids before kindergarten starts. There is a financial burden, even with state benefits if you are educated (I live in the EU). I see why so many people don't have kids, it just isn't worth it for them. At the same time, kids are great and I have no regrets even though we are parenting them through the "terrible twos". I love them so much, they are a driving force in my life. I find it somewhat scary that I had a child free mindset in uni. On top of that I have increasing skepticism about pensions going into the future... there is just too many old people around. What money is going to be left when I get old? _probably none_. The kids are my backup plan, of course I cant count on them, its their life too, but those chances are better than the possibility of dying alone in some cheap care facility or worse. I may sounds biased because I would benefit from such a scheme, but if governments _want_ kids for economic stability, then make it worth it for parents to have kids! The pressure to work now days is exhausting for society, like cutting down a forest without planting new trees.
- vagrantJin 3y ago
  bravo. human worth, value of family can actually be measured in $¥€ now with the added benefit of being able to opt out. But there is another, less savvy controlling idea among the would-be-parents, that is: family through marriage is shaky at best. Mate selection is a wild ride.
  - imacomputer 3y ago
    > human worth, value of family can actually be measured in $¥€ now with the added benefit of being able to opt out. Always has been, look at any agrarian culture.
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]

18 points by propter_hoc 3y ago

So far only religion has convinced affluent couples to have above replacement >2 babies. Too bad PRC cracked down on cults.

7thaccount 3y ago

Too late. People got used to having very small families both because of the tyrannical policy and because it makes more sense with urbanization. Also, you never know when you might have an accident, so if the limit becomes two, you'll still have one and only have two if there is an accident.

bell-cot 3y ago

Not that the headline is particularly accurate...but where & when has national leadership calling upon women to have more children ever actually worked? (Yes, most of the CCP's brighter members probably understood that it was just performative leadership.) And if you ruthlessly optimize a society for maximum short-term economic output, mostly via short-term individual rewards...um, yes, that does kinda de-emphasize everything that's needed for the society to have much of a very-long-term future, doesn't it?

AniseAbyss 3y ago
[dead]

beaeglebeached 3y ago

Raising kids absolutely sucks 99.9% of the time. Society is constantly riding your ass demanding you follow their every law, desire, and regulation and if you do it right no one gives a shit other than to milk the kid dry in taxes for being raised to be productive. If you do it wrong, well there's a jail cell waiting and you lose all your friends and family and live in terrible guilt. The kid, well perhaps rightly the kid thinks he's owed a proper raising so there's no thanks for providing it. It's a suckers game and by the time you're free again you're getting old and evolution is ready to wind you down. Knowing what I do now, I wouldn't do it again.

AussieWog93 3y ago
Are you actually a parent? That seems like a very warped view.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- Erratic6576 3y ago
  Yeah people look down on me when I talk like this. It’s like you must love it if you’re going through it. I love my son but caring for a child from nine a.m. to eleven p.m. is exhausting.
thehappypm 3y ago
I have a 1-year old and I think, so far, it has sucked about 10% of the time, max.
- toomuchtodo 3y ago
  I have two toddlers and it has sucked more than it hasn’t (~7 years). ymmv, n=1, all that jazz. Roughly 8-17% of the population regrets having kids (depending on study [1]), and a substantial cohort simply doesn’t want them [2], so it’s not for everyone. [1] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8294566/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8294566/ [2] https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2021/11/19/growing-share-of-childless-adults-in-u-s-dont-expect-to-ever-have-children/ https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2021/11/19/growing-s...
imacomputer 3y ago
I don't know man, I know it sounds cliche, but kids were one of the best things that "accidentally" happened to me. Its really not as bad as most people make it out to be. I even got 2 for 1 type deal. Sure there are bad days, but most are good. And maybe someday, when the money is gone, and the pensions are one fire, they will take care of me.
- 3y ago

thmsths 3y ago

I have come the conclusion that kids have basically gone from asset to liability over the last century. And even if they may not express it in these terms or have hard numbers to back it up, people know this intuitively. In the 1920s there was no social security so having kids to take care of you in your old days was a must, expectations were somewhat low. You could get a lot of kids because making them all share one room was considered fine, they were expected to do a lot of chores, sometimes helping with the family's business even. Contrast that to today: we have financialized everything so you don't need kids, you just need someone to have them, not you specifically. The expectations are high: they need their own bedroom, you have to constantly be behind them (otherwise some busybody will call the cops for neglect), pay for expensive hobbies, tutor them so they can go to a good college (that you're expected to help pay for). Is it really surprising then that people get less or no kids? Of course this quality over quantity approach may actually be a good thing, I certainly appreciate having been raised that way, unfortunately we have structured our societies to expect infinite growth so until we find a way to resolve these conflicting needs we will keep feeling the pain.

AussieWog93 3y ago
Not saying you're wrong, but I really think you've overlooked the cultural shift towards individualism. Maybe not so much in the 1920s, but in WW1 men would lie about their age so they'd have the opportunity to fight for the empire. Family, nation and duty came before self-actualisation and security.
- thmsths 3y ago
  I would not dismiss the link with individualism but I am not convinced that it is a cause, if anything I see it as a consequence. When you are raised as part of a large family with several generations in the same house you probably have a much stronger sense of community than a single kid raised by just two parents.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
MR4D 3y ago

supertofu 3y ago

I can see no benefit at all to having children in this day. Parents are expected to engage with their child at all times, and it's no longer socially acceptable to let a child roam the neighborhood as it was when I was a kid. In the US, job insecurity and ridiculous costs of living make having a child a financial burden. The pure physical risk of birth in a healthcare system that does not support postpartum healthcare in any way does not seem worth it.

imacomputer 3y ago

I see both side of the equation here honestly... fyi I have kids, the two for one deal. On one side, kids are tough. It is a commitment, if you are used to a certain lifestyle of travel and individual activities things are going to get significantly tough. Not impossible, but it will probably be different to accommodate others needs. On top of that my wife career has been pushed aside for a few years to help the kids before kindergarten starts. There is a financial burden, even with state benefits if you are educated (I live in the EU). I see why so many people don't have kids, it just isn't worth it for them. At the same time, kids are great and I have no regrets even though we are parenting them through the "terrible twos". I love them so much, they are a driving force in my life. I find it somewhat scary that I had a child free mindset in uni. On top of that I have increasing skepticism about pensions going into the future... there is just too many old people around. What money is going to be left when I get old? _probably none_. The kids are my backup plan, of course I cant count on them, its their life too, but those chances are better than the possibility of dying alone in some cheap care facility or worse. I may sounds biased because I would benefit from such a scheme, but if governments _want_ kids for economic stability, then make it worth it for parents to have kids! The pressure to work now days is exhausting for society, like cutting down a forest without planting new trees.

vagrantJin 3y ago
bravo. human worth, value of family can actually be measured in $¥€ now with the added benefit of being able to opt out. But there is another, less savvy controlling idea among the would-be-parents, that is: family through marriage is shaky at best. Mate selection is a wild ride.
- imacomputer 3y ago
  > human worth, value of family can actually be measured in $¥€ now with the added benefit of being able to opt out. Always has been, look at any agrarian culture.

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]