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At this point, it's worth remembering that one of the points on which Epic lost was Apple's right to take a cut of transactions. I found this discussion of the

At this point, it's worth remembering that one of the points on which Epic lost was Apple's right to take a cut of transactions. I found this discussion of the Apple v. Epic ruling to be informative: > as discussed in the findings of facts, IAP is the method by which Apple collects its licensing fee from developers for the use of Apple’s intellectual property. Even in the absence of IAP, Apple could still charge a commission on developers. It would simply be more difficult for Apple to collect that commission. Indeed, while the Court finds no basis for the specific rate chosen by Apple (i.e., the 30% rate) based on the record, the Court still concludes that Apple is entitled to some compensation for use of its intellectual property. https://stratechery.com/2021/the-apple-v-epic-decision/ https://stratechery.com/2021/the-apple-v-epic-decision/ The judge hinted here and there that Epic should have sued over the size of Apple's cut, not it's right to take a cut.

threeseed 3y ago
> Epic should have sued over the size of Apple's cut, not it's right to take a cut Epic charges 5% for Unreal Engine. Apple offers developers significantly more than just a games engine.
- throwaway290 3y ago
  The most famous Epic game is (or was until this legal battle) played on iOS more than on any other platform, that's in Epic's own complaint. So who built iOS? Why so many people use it? How come they are willing to pay for games instead of pirating them? Looks like whoever developed iOS and all the hardware it runs on and the ecosystem that makes it appealing for rich users is actually providing Epic a ton of value and profit, but Epic doesn't want to pay for it. I wonder who's greedy here (Also it's insane how we just accept that Epic with its massive profits and margins is the one who wants to get a discount from Apple, if anything they should be charged double what small business single person devs pay.)
  - mvdtnz 3y ago
    I've seen you make this claim twice in this comment section. Fortnite is not on iOS.
    - eightyfive 3y ago
      Fortnite was previously on iOS, at least until the events and lawsuit referenced in the main link. It’s kinda literally the entire point of the legal battle.
  - m000 3y ago
    What you describe is the epitome of gatekeeping. Epic developed a cross-platform game that runs on half a dozen platforms. The appeal of the game is exactly because of that. And you claim that Epic should pay 30% to Apple, because "we are friends with rich people". Not to mention that the "is actually providing Epic a ton of value and profit" claim is completely bollocks. Can you point to any iOS-exclusive games that matter out there? Ah, right. They don't exist. Because there's (comparatively) very little money in iOS gaming.
    - throwaway290 3y ago
      > And you claim that Epic should pay 30% to Apple, because "we are friends with rich people". What? > "is actually providing Epic a ton of value and profit" claim is completely bollocks If it was true Epic wouldn't be clamouring so hard for App Store presence and iOS users. Epic is the first to admit that App Store provides a ton of value and profit. The whole rigamarole is Epic wanting it but paying less or nothing for it. > there's (comparatively) very little money in iOS gaming. According to whom? Epic filed a lawsuit because they were losing ungodly money after millions of iOS based gamers stopped playing Fortnite. What did they expect, users will start buy gaming consoles just for this? Sorry but that's ludicrous, there's plenty of other good games on iOS. Many of them also don't try to leech money off you or your kids like Fortnite. > Can you point to any iOS-exclusive games that matter out there? That's true of any big game, most games are released for multiple platforms because it'd be stupid not to do it if you can.
choppaface 3y ago
But use of said IP is required because Apple forbids side-loading. Therefore Apple App store is a monopoly. So hopefully the court result will in the end help get the Apple App store shut down / opened up.
- sircastor 3y ago
  Some people think of the App Store as a bazaar that Apple runs on its property, and it’s a 15-30% charge to setup a tent and sell your wares. Others think of it as Apple’s general store where they carry your app as a product, and you pay 15-30% for a place on the shelf. The concept that Kroger (for instance) has a monopoly of customers in its own store is ridiculous. There are other stores, and other bazaars. What analogy would you use to describe this situation that clarifies your position?
  - knubie 3y ago
    I think a better analogy would be something like installing aftermarket parts for for your vehicle.
    - buffington 3y ago
      Could you actually describe this? How would that be a better analogy?
      - knubie 3y ago
        The iPhone is like a vehicle (car, motorcycle, John Deere tractor, etc). iPhone apps are like after market vehicle parts. As a vehicle owner I'd like to be able to have a choice whether I want to install OEM parts or after market parts. The after market parts might be cheaper, or have features that the OEM parts lack. I would like to be able to purchase these parts without a 30% markup that goes to the car manufacturer. As an iPhone user, I'd like to be able to install apps on my iPhone without having to pay the iPhone manufacturer a 30% markup. I realize that this analogy doesn't directly address the issue of whether Apple has a monopoly on the market of iPhone apps, but it's how I think about it as a consumer.
mmcnl 3y ago
Then Epic might've won the battle but lost the war. I don't think this is the end.
- pms 3y ago
  It sounds to me the exact opposite. Apple's bad-faith compliance will backfire. Enough of this.

threeseed 3y ago

> Epic should have sued over the size of Apple's cut, not it's right to take a cut Epic charges 5% for Unreal Engine. Apple offers developers significantly more than just a games engine.

throwaway290 3y ago
The most famous Epic game is (or was until this legal battle) played on iOS more than on any other platform, that's in Epic's own complaint. So who built iOS? Why so many people use it? How come they are willing to pay for games instead of pirating them? Looks like whoever developed iOS and all the hardware it runs on and the ecosystem that makes it appealing for rich users is actually providing Epic a ton of value and profit, but Epic doesn't want to pay for it. I wonder who's greedy here (Also it's insane how we just accept that Epic with its massive profits and margins is the one who wants to get a discount from Apple, if anything they should be charged double what small business single person devs pay.)
- mvdtnz 3y ago
  I've seen you make this claim twice in this comment section. Fortnite is not on iOS.
  - eightyfive 3y ago
    Fortnite was previously on iOS, at least until the events and lawsuit referenced in the main link. It’s kinda literally the entire point of the legal battle.
- m000 3y ago
  What you describe is the epitome of gatekeeping. Epic developed a cross-platform game that runs on half a dozen platforms. The appeal of the game is exactly because of that. And you claim that Epic should pay 30% to Apple, because "we are friends with rich people". Not to mention that the "is actually providing Epic a ton of value and profit" claim is completely bollocks. Can you point to any iOS-exclusive games that matter out there? Ah, right. They don't exist. Because there's (comparatively) very little money in iOS gaming.
  - throwaway290 3y ago
    > And you claim that Epic should pay 30% to Apple, because "we are friends with rich people". What? > "is actually providing Epic a ton of value and profit" claim is completely bollocks If it was true Epic wouldn't be clamouring so hard for App Store presence and iOS users. Epic is the first to admit that App Store provides a ton of value and profit. The whole rigamarole is Epic wanting it but paying less or nothing for it. > there's (comparatively) very little money in iOS gaming. According to whom? Epic filed a lawsuit because they were losing ungodly money after millions of iOS based gamers stopped playing Fortnite. What did they expect, users will start buy gaming consoles just for this? Sorry but that's ludicrous, there's plenty of other good games on iOS. Many of them also don't try to leech money off you or your kids like Fortnite. > Can you point to any iOS-exclusive games that matter out there? That's true of any big game, most games are released for multiple platforms because it'd be stupid not to do it if you can.

choppaface 3y ago

But use of said IP is required because Apple forbids side-loading. Therefore Apple App store is a monopoly. So hopefully the court result will in the end help get the Apple App store shut down / opened up.

sircastor 3y ago
Some people think of the App Store as a bazaar that Apple runs on its property, and it’s a 15-30% charge to setup a tent and sell your wares. Others think of it as Apple’s general store where they carry your app as a product, and you pay 15-30% for a place on the shelf. The concept that Kroger (for instance) has a monopoly of customers in its own store is ridiculous. There are other stores, and other bazaars. What analogy would you use to describe this situation that clarifies your position?
- knubie 3y ago
  I think a better analogy would be something like installing aftermarket parts for for your vehicle.
  - buffington 3y ago
    Could you actually describe this? How would that be a better analogy?
    - knubie 3y ago
      The iPhone is like a vehicle (car, motorcycle, John Deere tractor, etc). iPhone apps are like after market vehicle parts. As a vehicle owner I'd like to be able to have a choice whether I want to install OEM parts or after market parts. The after market parts might be cheaper, or have features that the OEM parts lack. I would like to be able to purchase these parts without a 30% markup that goes to the car manufacturer. As an iPhone user, I'd like to be able to install apps on my iPhone without having to pay the iPhone manufacturer a 30% markup. I realize that this analogy doesn't directly address the issue of whether Apple has a monopoly on the market of iPhone apps, but it's how I think about it as a consumer.

mmcnl 3y ago

Then Epic might've won the battle but lost the war. I don't think this is the end.

pms 3y ago
It sounds to me the exact opposite. Apple's bad-faith compliance will backfire. Enough of this.