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As a liberal raised during the backlash to the Iraq War, my attitude towards the Military Industrial Complex has really changed in the aftermath of Russia’s inv

As a liberal raised during the backlash to the Iraq War, my attitude towards the Military Industrial Complex has really changed in the aftermath of Russia’s invasion of Ukraine and China’s seemingly inevitable invasion of Taiwan. Add in the possibility that the US could be dragged into new wars in the Middle East and even possibly South America, and I really don’t think we have the luxury to say “weapons bad, let’s not build any”. Being the policeman of the world absolutely sucks. War absolutely sucks. But one of the best ways to prevent China, Russia, Iran, Venezuela, etc from saying “might make right, let’s take this land and these resources from our neighbors, since no one can stop us” is for the US to say, “no, we will stop you and we have the will and the tools to easily do it.”

gremlinunderway 3y ago
[flagged]
- idopmstuff 3y ago
  Avoiding doing anything that might antagonize the bad guys isn't a particularly effective strategy for maintaining a stable and peaceful world. The lesson of Poland in WW2 is that when evil dictators get what they want, they don't calmly stop doing bad things.
- pyuser583 3y ago
  The alternative to NATO expansion was transferring European defense to the EU. Or having a bunch of EU nations extremely vulnerable to Russian influence. I’m very glad it’s NATO, and not the “EU Supreme Command” defending the Continent. Russia and Ukraine probably are too.
  - blibble 3y ago
    Russia would have loved "EU Supreme Command" instead of NATO the Germans would have happily given Ukraine up (and likely Poland too) if they got a few cents off their gas bill
- woah 3y ago
  If NATO hadn't expanded then Russia would currently be invading Poland and Austria. Why would this be a good thing?
- Footkerchief 3y ago
  Among the countries interested in joining NATO during the 90s was Russia itself, even as it began waging brutal wars against its neighbors, who thereby have earned far more right to be paranoid than Russia has.
- blibble 3y ago
  given their immediate prior history, maybe those countries wanted to join so they'd never have to endure the horrors of being under Russian domination yet again? not even the Russian population wants to be under Russian control
brunoqc 3y ago
Fuck yeah. Nobody steals resources except us.
dogman144 3y ago
Unless you’re willing to help police or let your kids do it, I wouldn’t be so quick to forget the lessons of armchair patriot’ing wrapped up in saving the world mythologies as to give the US’s international military policy carte blanche, was the main lesson from Iraq. War sucks, but what sucks more is a public giving itself license to disengage bc of an easy moral justification. Approaches like this are why the AUMF (the… only legal approval for going to war) wasn’t authorized, let alone voted on for 10+ years.
- AYBABTME 3y ago
  The US is the most benign empire one could wish for. History makes that plain, and just peeking over the fence at contender's tendencies and track record further reinforces that. Easy moral justification backed by actual moral justification.
  - racketcon2089 3y ago
    Would the abstract "one" you're thinking of happen to be a middle class college educated American who has never been on the receiving end of American benevolence in the form of saturated bombing of civilian areas, nor been at risk of being drafted to fight overseas? Is your point that those people's lives are somehow inherently less valuable or is your point that you're willing to sacrifice as many of them as it takes to get a good outcome for you?
    - sebzim4500 3y ago
      >nor been at risk of being drafted to fight overseas? I doubt there will ever be another draft in the US. As technology becomes more important the priority will be keeping the industrial base running for military R&D and weapon manufacturing, not on having millions of barely trained kids most of which you can't properly equip.
      - racketcon2089 3y ago
        I can tell you're not in Ukraine or Israel right now. Would you like to know how?
vkou 3y ago
> But one of the best ways to prevent China, Russia, Iran, Venezuela, etc from saying “might make right, let’s take this land and these resources from our neighbors, since no one can stop us”... ... Is not antagonizing them when they were reaching out to build a partnership, which is exactly what was happening with Russia in the 90s. If you're wondering how Putin happened, that's the decade that you want to be looking at. Instead, the US figured that since the Cold War, round I went so well, why not do it again, and oh hey, Russian revanchism is on the rise and now Ukraine is dealing with the consequences, but hey, we're giving Russia their very own second Vietnam, so I guess that's nice. Maybe not very nice in Ukraine, but they are, after all, a buffer state...
- Aeolun 3y ago
  Wut? Russia was well on it’s way to full integration when Putin decided to go batshit crazy.
pazimzadeh 3y ago
> “might make right, let’s take this land and these resources from our neighbors, since no one can stop us” From Wikipedia: "From the time of the discovery of oil in Iran, foreign powers used force and exploited the weakness of the Iranian state to coerce it into concessions which allowed foreign companies to control oil extraction" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nationalization_of_the_Iranian_oil_industry https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nationalization_of_the_Iranian...
datavirtue 3y ago
"Being the policeman of the world absolutely sucks" What's the alternative? It's as good a job as any and we are all enjoying it's warmth, right now. Humans need war. Kurt even waved off his anti-war schtick after thinking about it long enough. This was a guy who lived though the direct impact of unimaginable destruction and death brought on by war. He profited from it!
- quesera 3y ago
  Cobain, Gödel, Weill, Russell, or Vonnegut? Were you friends?
justinclift 3y ago
> Being the policeman of the world absolutely sucks. It would probably suck less if it was more neutral and without the self dealing / corruption. The "policeman of the world" thing often seems like just a fig leaf / marketing to paper over dodgy stuff. :(
- krapp 3y ago
  >The "policeman of the world" thing often seems like just a fig leaf / marketing to paper over dodgy stuff. :( It really is. The US had the advantage of coming out of World War 2 relatively unscathed compared to Europe, as well as the only active nuclear arsenal at the time, as well as every Nazi rocket engineer and Japanese bioweapons expert it could pick up. It basically made the Western world an offer it couldn't refuse - accept American hegemony, military occupation and generous loans for postwar reconstruction or flip a coin on whether Washington or Moscow nukes you into atoms in the great game of superpower chess that would define the 20th century. It isn't hard to look at American foreign policy as being little more than a shakedown operation.
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
bigstrat2003 3y ago
> But one of the best ways to prevent China, Russia, Iran, Venezuela, etc from saying “might make right, let’s take this land and these resources from our neighbors, since no one can stop us” It's not our place to stop that. Our place is to defend ourselves and anyone with whom we have a formal alliance. Beyond that, we cannot and should not attempt to play world police.

gremlinunderway 3y ago

[flagged]

idopmstuff 3y ago
Avoiding doing anything that might antagonize the bad guys isn't a particularly effective strategy for maintaining a stable and peaceful world. The lesson of Poland in WW2 is that when evil dictators get what they want, they don't calmly stop doing bad things.
pyuser583 3y ago
The alternative to NATO expansion was transferring European defense to the EU. Or having a bunch of EU nations extremely vulnerable to Russian influence. I’m very glad it’s NATO, and not the “EU Supreme Command” defending the Continent. Russia and Ukraine probably are too.
- blibble 3y ago
  Russia would have loved "EU Supreme Command" instead of NATO the Germans would have happily given Ukraine up (and likely Poland too) if they got a few cents off their gas bill
woah 3y ago
If NATO hadn't expanded then Russia would currently be invading Poland and Austria. Why would this be a good thing?
Footkerchief 3y ago
Among the countries interested in joining NATO during the 90s was Russia itself, even as it began waging brutal wars against its neighbors, who thereby have earned far more right to be paranoid than Russia has.
blibble 3y ago
given their immediate prior history, maybe those countries wanted to join so they'd never have to endure the horrors of being under Russian domination yet again? not even the Russian population wants to be under Russian control

brunoqc 3y ago

Fuck yeah. Nobody steals resources except us.

dogman144 3y ago

Unless you’re willing to help police or let your kids do it, I wouldn’t be so quick to forget the lessons of armchair patriot’ing wrapped up in saving the world mythologies as to give the US’s international military policy carte blanche, was the main lesson from Iraq. War sucks, but what sucks more is a public giving itself license to disengage bc of an easy moral justification. Approaches like this are why the AUMF (the… only legal approval for going to war) wasn’t authorized, let alone voted on for 10+ years.

AYBABTME 3y ago
The US is the most benign empire one could wish for. History makes that plain, and just peeking over the fence at contender's tendencies and track record further reinforces that. Easy moral justification backed by actual moral justification.
- racketcon2089 3y ago
  Would the abstract "one" you're thinking of happen to be a middle class college educated American who has never been on the receiving end of American benevolence in the form of saturated bombing of civilian areas, nor been at risk of being drafted to fight overseas? Is your point that those people's lives are somehow inherently less valuable or is your point that you're willing to sacrifice as many of them as it takes to get a good outcome for you?
  - sebzim4500 3y ago
    >nor been at risk of being drafted to fight overseas? I doubt there will ever be another draft in the US. As technology becomes more important the priority will be keeping the industrial base running for military R&D and weapon manufacturing, not on having millions of barely trained kids most of which you can't properly equip.
    - racketcon2089 3y ago
      I can tell you're not in Ukraine or Israel right now. Would you like to know how?

vkou 3y ago

> But one of the best ways to prevent China, Russia, Iran, Venezuela, etc from saying “might make right, let’s take this land and these resources from our neighbors, since no one can stop us”... ... Is not antagonizing them when they were reaching out to build a partnership, which is exactly what was happening with Russia in the 90s. If you're wondering how Putin happened, that's the decade that you want to be looking at. Instead, the US figured that since the Cold War, round I went so well, why not do it again, and oh hey, Russian revanchism is on the rise and now Ukraine is dealing with the consequences, but hey, we're giving Russia their very own second Vietnam, so I guess that's nice. Maybe not very nice in Ukraine, but they are, after all, a buffer state...

Aeolun 3y ago
Wut? Russia was well on it’s way to full integration when Putin decided to go batshit crazy.

pazimzadeh 3y ago

> “might make right, let’s take this land and these resources from our neighbors, since no one can stop us” From Wikipedia: "From the time of the discovery of oil in Iran, foreign powers used force and exploited the weakness of the Iranian state to coerce it into concessions which allowed foreign companies to control oil extraction" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nationalization_of_the_Iranian_oil_industry https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nationalization_of_the_Iranian...

datavirtue 3y ago

"Being the policeman of the world absolutely sucks" What's the alternative? It's as good a job as any and we are all enjoying it's warmth, right now. Humans need war. Kurt even waved off his anti-war schtick after thinking about it long enough. This was a guy who lived though the direct impact of unimaginable destruction and death brought on by war. He profited from it!

quesera 3y ago
Cobain, Gödel, Weill, Russell, or Vonnegut? Were you friends?

justinclift 3y ago

> Being the policeman of the world absolutely sucks. It would probably suck less if it was more neutral and without the self dealing / corruption. The "policeman of the world" thing often seems like just a fig leaf / marketing to paper over dodgy stuff. :(

krapp 3y ago
>The "policeman of the world" thing often seems like just a fig leaf / marketing to paper over dodgy stuff. :( It really is. The US had the advantage of coming out of World War 2 relatively unscathed compared to Europe, as well as the only active nuclear arsenal at the time, as well as every Nazi rocket engineer and Japanese bioweapons expert it could pick up. It basically made the Western world an offer it couldn't refuse - accept American hegemony, military occupation and generous loans for postwar reconstruction or flip a coin on whether Washington or Moscow nukes you into atoms in the great game of superpower chess that would define the 20th century. It isn't hard to look at American foreign policy as being little more than a shakedown operation.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]

bigstrat2003 3y ago

> But one of the best ways to prevent China, Russia, Iran, Venezuela, etc from saying “might make right, let’s take this land and these resources from our neighbors, since no one can stop us” It's not our place to stop that. Our place is to defend ourselves and anyone with whom we have a formal alliance. Beyond that, we cannot and should not attempt to play world police.