6 ms·

Only because you've standardized on their ecosystem and pre-given them all your data. This is not the future we were promised

by winphone1974 3y ago

riversflow 3y ago
You don’t have to give Apple your data. It uses information stored on device.
- jonathanlydall 3y ago
  I’m a happy ApplePay user, but you absolutely do have to give them your (card) information upfront through the whole adding your card in the Wallet app. That being said, I feel the parent’s viewpoint is naively idealistic, the payment industry is huge with many players and most attempts at new standards or interoperability are by people trying to get a cut of the action, no one is going to adopt a new standard unless they feel they absolutely have to. ApplePay is pragmatic in that it largely hooks into the existing CC systems and thanks to Apple’s market size they have enough clout to convince people it’s worth the effort. A whole new standard just for the “general good of the public” will never get any traction without regulation, and in places like the U.S. where bribery is essentially legal (so long as you call it lobbying), any new regulation like this faces an extreme uphill battle to being introduced except where someone standing to make lots of money is behind it.
  - vladvasiliu 3y ago
    > I’m a happy ApplePay user, but you absolutely do have to give them your (card) information upfront through the whole adding your card in the Wallet app. Do you actually have to give them the card? Or is it only stored somehow on the phone? I wonder how this works exactly. When I replaced my old iphone with a new one, I did the whole "transfer everything" dance. Waited around for two hours (didn't restore from icloud, but transferred from old to new), and still had to manually add my CCs to Apple Pay again.
    - rstupek 3y ago
      It's stored on your phone in the secure enclave.
      - vladvasiliu 3y ago
        That's what I was thinking, which means you're not actually giving Apple your CC number.
        jonathanlydall 3y ago
        My experience is that you can start the process by entering your credit card details, or use your camera to try fill them in for you. Apple then checks if your card issuer has ApplePay enabled and if so provisions a “virtual” card which is what is stored on the device’s Secure Enclave. I also just checked my banking app quickly which can initiate the adding of the card to wallet, showing the wallet’s add card screen with the card holder name and the last 4 digits and asking if you want to proceed. There is no way to see what the full virtual card number is, so there is no way to use this virtual card aside from tapping your phone on CC machines or using websites which have set up ApplePay as a payment method. CC machines don’t actually have to support ApplePay specifically, as long as it supports tap to pay without insisting on a PIN, then ApplePay works with it. In essence your phone’s NFC exactly implements the same capabilities and protocols as NFC chips on normal credit cards.
        vladvasiliu 3y ago
        > CC machines don’t actually have to support ApplePay specifically, as long as it supports tap to pay without insisting on a PIN, then ApplePay works with it. In essence your phone’s NFC exactly implements the same capabilities and protocols as NFC chips on normal credit cards. IIRC it's not exactly the same. One user-facing example where things are different is that contactless payments with a regular credit card have a 50 € maximum. If there is a limit when paying with the iPhone, it's much higher. I also seem to recall that the merchant's payment contract must support this, but I'll have to confirm with a colleague. Although Apple Pay support is very common where I live, it did happen a few times that some restaurant's terminal accepted VISA contactless but not Apple Pay. I've also had a situation where my CC is set up to not allow payments outside my country. Payment with Apple Pay was denied as being "out of country", whereas the physical card worked fine. The store is from a big national chain, in the heart of the capital city.
  - cogogo 3y ago
    I agree. No naive ideals here. There should be a standard that makes it easy and private for the consumer. Doesn’t mean it will happen.
- mgkimsal 3y ago
  Seems like parsing semantics. "Pre-given them" - are you giving it directly to apple.com? No. You're putting in your hardware, true. And... somehow... it makes it to all your other apple devices.
  - llbeansandrice 3y ago
    It's just a credit card though? Seems like a weird distinction when those details are intended to be given out. I presume if you're using one-time cards you're not using Apple pay at all. Plus you need the CVC code and such to re-auth them on new devices. Apple has issues with privacy, but I don't really see how this is one of them.
  - scoodah 3y ago
    Apple Pay is one of the (few) things where that is not the case. New phone = manually re-adding cards to Apple Pay. Get an Apple Watch? It does not get your Apple Pay info until you manually add them to the watch.
    - mgkimsal 3y ago
      I have access to card data in macOS safari that I entered on my iPhone. I don't double enter it. I do know if you disable security on the phone, you lose the card info and have to readd.
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
  - tomjakubowski 3y ago
    > somehow... it makes it to all your other apple devices. "Somehow" their information makes it around? No, you have to add them, yourself, on every device you use them from, individually.
    - mgkimsal 3y ago
      No, I don't. If I put info in the phone, it's available on safari on macOS. I'm fairly certain I didn't enter it multiple times.
bluepizza 3y ago
The future we were promised is not being curbed by Apple and Google. It is being curbed by rampant cybercrime.

Only because you've standardized on their ecosystem and pre-given them all your data. This is not the future we were promised

riversflow 3y ago

You don’t have to give Apple your data. It uses information stored on device.

jonathanlydall 3y ago
I’m a happy ApplePay user, but you absolutely do have to give them your (card) information upfront through the whole adding your card in the Wallet app. That being said, I feel the parent’s viewpoint is naively idealistic, the payment industry is huge with many players and most attempts at new standards or interoperability are by people trying to get a cut of the action, no one is going to adopt a new standard unless they feel they absolutely have to. ApplePay is pragmatic in that it largely hooks into the existing CC systems and thanks to Apple’s market size they have enough clout to convince people it’s worth the effort. A whole new standard just for the “general good of the public” will never get any traction without regulation, and in places like the U.S. where bribery is essentially legal (so long as you call it lobbying), any new regulation like this faces an extreme uphill battle to being introduced except where someone standing to make lots of money is behind it.
- vladvasiliu 3y ago
  > I’m a happy ApplePay user, but you absolutely do have to give them your (card) information upfront through the whole adding your card in the Wallet app. Do you actually have to give them the card? Or is it only stored somehow on the phone? I wonder how this works exactly. When I replaced my old iphone with a new one, I did the whole "transfer everything" dance. Waited around for two hours (didn't restore from icloud, but transferred from old to new), and still had to manually add my CCs to Apple Pay again.
  - rstupek 3y ago
    It's stored on your phone in the secure enclave.
    - vladvasiliu 3y ago
      That's what I was thinking, which means you're not actually giving Apple your CC number.
      - jonathanlydall 3y ago
        My experience is that you can start the process by entering your credit card details, or use your camera to try fill them in for you. Apple then checks if your card issuer has ApplePay enabled and if so provisions a “virtual” card which is what is stored on the device’s Secure Enclave. I also just checked my banking app quickly which can initiate the adding of the card to wallet, showing the wallet’s add card screen with the card holder name and the last 4 digits and asking if you want to proceed. There is no way to see what the full virtual card number is, so there is no way to use this virtual card aside from tapping your phone on CC machines or using websites which have set up ApplePay as a payment method. CC machines don’t actually have to support ApplePay specifically, as long as it supports tap to pay without insisting on a PIN, then ApplePay works with it. In essence your phone’s NFC exactly implements the same capabilities and protocols as NFC chips on normal credit cards.
        vladvasiliu 3y ago
        > CC machines don’t actually have to support ApplePay specifically, as long as it supports tap to pay without insisting on a PIN, then ApplePay works with it. In essence your phone’s NFC exactly implements the same capabilities and protocols as NFC chips on normal credit cards. IIRC it's not exactly the same. One user-facing example where things are different is that contactless payments with a regular credit card have a 50 € maximum. If there is a limit when paying with the iPhone, it's much higher. I also seem to recall that the merchant's payment contract must support this, but I'll have to confirm with a colleague. Although Apple Pay support is very common where I live, it did happen a few times that some restaurant's terminal accepted VISA contactless but not Apple Pay. I've also had a situation where my CC is set up to not allow payments outside my country. Payment with Apple Pay was denied as being "out of country", whereas the physical card worked fine. The store is from a big national chain, in the heart of the capital city.
- cogogo 3y ago
  I agree. No naive ideals here. There should be a standard that makes it easy and private for the consumer. Doesn’t mean it will happen.
mgkimsal 3y ago
Seems like parsing semantics. "Pre-given them" - are you giving it directly to apple.com? No. You're putting in your hardware, true. And... somehow... it makes it to all your other apple devices.
- llbeansandrice 3y ago
  It's just a credit card though? Seems like a weird distinction when those details are intended to be given out. I presume if you're using one-time cards you're not using Apple pay at all. Plus you need the CVC code and such to re-auth them on new devices. Apple has issues with privacy, but I don't really see how this is one of them.
- scoodah 3y ago
  Apple Pay is one of the (few) things where that is not the case. New phone = manually re-adding cards to Apple Pay. Get an Apple Watch? It does not get your Apple Pay info until you manually add them to the watch.
  - mgkimsal 3y ago
    I have access to card data in macOS safari that I entered on my iPhone. I don't double enter it. I do know if you disable security on the phone, you lose the card info and have to readd.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- tomjakubowski 3y ago
  > somehow... it makes it to all your other apple devices. "Somehow" their information makes it around? No, you have to add them, yourself, on every device you use them from, individually.
  - mgkimsal 3y ago
    No, I don't. If I put info in the phone, it's available on safari on macOS. I'm fairly certain I didn't enter it multiple times.

bluepizza 3y ago

The future we were promised is not being curbed by Apple and Google. It is being curbed by rampant cybercrime.