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Oh, look, it's another EV hit piece! From El Reg no less, who would have thought... Anyway: yes, extremely low temperatures do affect batteries badly, meaning y

Oh, look, it's another EV hit piece! From El Reg no less, who would have thought... Anyway: yes, extremely low temperatures do affect batteries badly, meaning you may not get to drive your car for very long for that particular reason a few days every year. But, good news! EVs with 24/7 heat pumps keeping the batteries alive are a thing and work out pretty well in within-the-Arctic-circle locations such as Greenland, where previously "keep your diesel engine running at all times during winter to prevent the fuel from freezing" was the norm. So, no, keeping the planet alive and getting to the Supermarket or your Job or your Dying Grandparents are not necessarily mutually exclusive, even in cold climates! Exclusions apply, not everyone may qualify for the technological advances mentioned, see dealer for details.

dash2 3y ago
Can I buy this tech now in a mass-market car?
- PreInternet01 3y ago
  Yes, although it's a market-dependent option. Where I live (Netherlands, not a place where it gets particularly cold), BMW i-series and Audi e-tron definitely offer cabin-and-battery-compartment-covering heat pumps, although I've personally seen it on Volkswagen vans in Greenland (but can't find a reference to that, sorry)
- _whiteCaps_ 3y ago
  It's often a feature in the higher trim levels. It's an option in the Kia EV6 / Hyundai Ioniq 5.
frenchman99 3y ago
Because you think EVs keep the planet alive? They require enormous amounts of raw materials. Unless they are also shared with car sharing or car pooling. Then yes.
- cyberge99 3y ago
  They’re cleaner than a car that burns fossil fuels every time it moves.
  - frenchman99 3y ago
    But dirtier during construction. More difficult to repair most of the time too. Pros and cons. If you keep an EV for a long time, than it is cleaner. But a lot of EVs are thrown out instead of being repaired. The real solution is to share cars and, ride a bicycle, walk or use public transport when possible.
    - bryanlarsen 3y ago
      > But a lot of EVs are thrown out instead of being repaired That's not true. There are battery recycling plants going bankrupt because the expected surge of dead EV's didn't materialize. EV's are staying on the road longer than expected, and the batteries are being reused rather than recycled or thrown out.
- soco 3y ago
  The studies say with an EV you come to break-even after two years of usage. This is with today's technologies of course. So if you buy a EV now, only in two years you can claim you were greener than an ICE. But after that, it does its job. Now of course the right way would be to use public transport but I guess some people will care even less about such a strange idea. Yes I am aware in some countries or places PT is not there. But anything can be done if there's a will, so not having public transport in place X means only not enough people wanted to have public transport in place X.
  - frenchman99 3y ago
    With "an" EV? Like all EVs have the same carbon footprint? That's definitely not true. Furthermore, even an EV has a carbon footprint and its far from 0. The real solution to be greener is to walk, ride a bicycle, or use public transport instead of a private car. And if you use a private car, then try to use car sharing so as to split the carbon footprint of the car's construction between all its users.
gjsman-1000 3y ago
The people who accuse every legitimate criticism as being a hit piece are insufferable. This is a very real problem - especially because, imagine the heat pumps you just mentioned. You go to the grocery store. There's no heat pump at the grocery store. You are quite limited in your travel by how long you need to be at your destination for - which sucks.
- mrguyorama 3y ago
  The heat pump is inside the car. It comes with you. It's no different to 90's cars with block heaters, and just as (un)common a concern
  - gjsman-1000 3y ago
    Unless the heat pump is in the car and can't run because the battery is frozen or died... I mean, real scenario here: It's the Yukon, it's -30C outside in January. You run in for groceries and the battery is low. You get haggled a bit. You come back outside, your battery is dead because it's cold. You can't run your heat pump either, because the battery is dead. You can't use, say, a fire or a blowtorch either. Time for hundreds of feet of extension cords.
    - foogazi 3y ago
      What % of the population of Earth falls under this “real” scenario? Most people won’t drive when it’s this cold anyway
    - PreInternet01 3y ago
      You don't need to 'run the heat pump'. It is running already, whenever required, even if you're not around. And, because it is running, your batteries will not reach a temperature where they start degrading. And, yes, this means your driving range is reduced slightly, but because heat pumps are so efficient, and because the alternative is, as you so eloquently observe, "car is dead", it's... sort-of worth it? And the wonderful thing is: this works in both extreme cold and extreme heat, because heat pumps are reversible! So, for a little bit of battery power/range reduction (let's call it 20%?), you keep your EV (and the planet!) alive a little while longer. Now, I don't have any experience with 'the Yukon', but I can tell you from personal experience that: a Volkswagen Transporter, used for staff and goods movement in Greenland (so, short distances only: all serious travel is done by plane or boat), that in its fossil-powered incarnation would need to run 24/7 on diesel for a good 90 days a year, works perfectly fine year-round in its heat-pump-upgraded EV life.
alienicecream 3y ago
The planet is not going to die, and pointing out important shortcomings of a technology is not a hit piece.
- timbit42 3y ago
  Yeah, earth will survive us but much of life might not.
ProjectArcturis 3y ago
The fact is, EVs right now give consumers worse experience in terms of range, recharge time, and reliability, and they cost substantially more. You can try guilting them about saving the planet, but ultimately most consumers buy what serves them best.
- soco 3y ago
  Because killing the planet serves them best, right. It's not even wrong, we won't die all in 20 years. Not even 40, I suppose. And after that... après moi, le déluge (and it's no metaphor this time)
  - nathanaldensr 3y ago
    Objection, your honor: assumes facts not in evidence.
  - kgabis 3y ago
    If you *really* care about planet then you don't drive a car but use public transport and/or cycle.
- asoneth 3y ago
  > give consumers worse experience in terms of range, recharge time, and reliability My expectation was also that switching to electric cars would involve some sacrifice but for my use cases it has been net more convenient. For daily commuting I plug in at the office garage where they have dozens of L1 and about twenty L2 chargers. This has been more convenient than remembering to stop at a gas pump a couple times a month. I initially kept a gasolene car for long trips because I assumed it would be inconvenient to schedule a ~30m stop every ~4 hours or so. In practice it turns out I need to stop about that frequently for family members to stretch, use the restroom, and grab a bite, etc. The major difference has been that it constrains where we stop rather than when we stop. However, if you are regularly doing 5+ hour trips in rural or remote areas, then a gasolene or diesel vehicle is a more convenient choice. As they build out a more comprehensive charging infrastructure the difference may lessen. I cannot speak to reliability as we've only had them for a year now.
theironhammer 3y ago
EVs are going to jack the price of electricity for everyone, including those of us don't drive at all.
- JoeAltmaier 3y ago
  Where were you when it was air conditioning that jacked up electricity for the rest of us! We could have used that foresight back then.
- PreInternet01 3y ago
  I'm not aware of any serious studies that support that assertion. In fact, general consensus is that, by increasing time-of-generation to time-of-use flexibility, EVs will drive down electricity prices. Case in point: during summer in Europe, assuming sunny weather, the 15-minute daytime spot price for electricity is generally negative due to the glut of PV supply. In other words: you can charge your car during the day and get paid for doing so. Then, at night, you feed back, like, 50% of your stored energy to the grid. You get to drive to work in the morning just fine (where you can charge your battery again, for free-or-less), and the (very little) you got paid for half-discharging your car during the night definitely did contribute to lowering prices during that time as well...
  - dns_snek 3y ago
    The only problem is that these assumptions rely on non-existent infrastructure which costs a ton of money to build and maintain. The overwhelming majority of parking spots don't offer EV charging, so people would have to charge their car at night when energy is expensive. Even if we did have EV charging available everywhere, excess of energy during times of peak production is the reason why energy might be cheap or free. As soon as you actually start utilizing that excess, the prices will stabilize around the average market rate.

dash2 3y ago

Can I buy this tech now in a mass-market car?

PreInternet01 3y ago
Yes, although it's a market-dependent option. Where I live (Netherlands, not a place where it gets particularly cold), BMW i-series and Audi e-tron definitely offer cabin-and-battery-compartment-covering heat pumps, although I've personally seen it on Volkswagen vans in Greenland (but can't find a reference to that, sorry)
_whiteCaps_ 3y ago
It's often a feature in the higher trim levels. It's an option in the Kia EV6 / Hyundai Ioniq 5.

frenchman99 3y ago

Because you think EVs keep the planet alive? They require enormous amounts of raw materials. Unless they are also shared with car sharing or car pooling. Then yes.

cyberge99 3y ago
They’re cleaner than a car that burns fossil fuels every time it moves.
- frenchman99 3y ago
  But dirtier during construction. More difficult to repair most of the time too. Pros and cons. If you keep an EV for a long time, than it is cleaner. But a lot of EVs are thrown out instead of being repaired. The real solution is to share cars and, ride a bicycle, walk or use public transport when possible.
  - bryanlarsen 3y ago
    > But a lot of EVs are thrown out instead of being repaired That's not true. There are battery recycling plants going bankrupt because the expected surge of dead EV's didn't materialize. EV's are staying on the road longer than expected, and the batteries are being reused rather than recycled or thrown out.
soco 3y ago
The studies say with an EV you come to break-even after two years of usage. This is with today's technologies of course. So if you buy a EV now, only in two years you can claim you were greener than an ICE. But after that, it does its job. Now of course the right way would be to use public transport but I guess some people will care even less about such a strange idea. Yes I am aware in some countries or places PT is not there. But anything can be done if there's a will, so not having public transport in place X means only not enough people wanted to have public transport in place X.
- frenchman99 3y ago
  With "an" EV? Like all EVs have the same carbon footprint? That's definitely not true. Furthermore, even an EV has a carbon footprint and its far from 0. The real solution to be greener is to walk, ride a bicycle, or use public transport instead of a private car. And if you use a private car, then try to use car sharing so as to split the carbon footprint of the car's construction between all its users.

gjsman-1000 3y ago

The people who accuse every legitimate criticism as being a hit piece are insufferable. This is a very real problem - especially because, imagine the heat pumps you just mentioned. You go to the grocery store. There's no heat pump at the grocery store. You are quite limited in your travel by how long you need to be at your destination for - which sucks.

mrguyorama 3y ago
The heat pump is inside the car. It comes with you. It's no different to 90's cars with block heaters, and just as (un)common a concern
- gjsman-1000 3y ago
  Unless the heat pump is in the car and can't run because the battery is frozen or died... I mean, real scenario here: It's the Yukon, it's -30C outside in January. You run in for groceries and the battery is low. You get haggled a bit. You come back outside, your battery is dead because it's cold. You can't run your heat pump either, because the battery is dead. You can't use, say, a fire or a blowtorch either. Time for hundreds of feet of extension cords.
  - foogazi 3y ago
    What % of the population of Earth falls under this “real” scenario? Most people won’t drive when it’s this cold anyway
  - PreInternet01 3y ago
    You don't need to 'run the heat pump'. It is running already, whenever required, even if you're not around. And, because it is running, your batteries will not reach a temperature where they start degrading. And, yes, this means your driving range is reduced slightly, but because heat pumps are so efficient, and because the alternative is, as you so eloquently observe, "car is dead", it's... sort-of worth it? And the wonderful thing is: this works in both extreme cold and extreme heat, because heat pumps are reversible! So, for a little bit of battery power/range reduction (let's call it 20%?), you keep your EV (and the planet!) alive a little while longer. Now, I don't have any experience with 'the Yukon', but I can tell you from personal experience that: a Volkswagen Transporter, used for staff and goods movement in Greenland (so, short distances only: all serious travel is done by plane or boat), that in its fossil-powered incarnation would need to run 24/7 on diesel for a good 90 days a year, works perfectly fine year-round in its heat-pump-upgraded EV life.

alienicecream 3y ago

The planet is not going to die, and pointing out important shortcomings of a technology is not a hit piece.

timbit42 3y ago
Yeah, earth will survive us but much of life might not.

ProjectArcturis 3y ago

The fact is, EVs right now give consumers worse experience in terms of range, recharge time, and reliability, and they cost substantially more. You can try guilting them about saving the planet, but ultimately most consumers buy what serves them best.

soco 3y ago
Because killing the planet serves them best, right. It's not even wrong, we won't die all in 20 years. Not even 40, I suppose. And after that... après moi, le déluge (and it's no metaphor this time)
- nathanaldensr 3y ago
  Objection, your honor: assumes facts not in evidence.
- kgabis 3y ago
  If you *really* care about planet then you don't drive a car but use public transport and/or cycle.
asoneth 3y ago
> give consumers worse experience in terms of range, recharge time, and reliability My expectation was also that switching to electric cars would involve some sacrifice but for my use cases it has been net more convenient. For daily commuting I plug in at the office garage where they have dozens of L1 and about twenty L2 chargers. This has been more convenient than remembering to stop at a gas pump a couple times a month. I initially kept a gasolene car for long trips because I assumed it would be inconvenient to schedule a ~30m stop every ~4 hours or so. In practice it turns out I need to stop about that frequently for family members to stretch, use the restroom, and grab a bite, etc. The major difference has been that it constrains where we stop rather than when we stop. However, if you are regularly doing 5+ hour trips in rural or remote areas, then a gasolene or diesel vehicle is a more convenient choice. As they build out a more comprehensive charging infrastructure the difference may lessen. I cannot speak to reliability as we've only had them for a year now.

theironhammer 3y ago

EVs are going to jack the price of electricity for everyone, including those of us don't drive at all.

JoeAltmaier 3y ago
Where were you when it was air conditioning that jacked up electricity for the rest of us! We could have used that foresight back then.
PreInternet01 3y ago
I'm not aware of any serious studies that support that assertion. In fact, general consensus is that, by increasing time-of-generation to time-of-use flexibility, EVs will drive down electricity prices. Case in point: during summer in Europe, assuming sunny weather, the 15-minute daytime spot price for electricity is generally negative due to the glut of PV supply. In other words: you can charge your car during the day and get paid for doing so. Then, at night, you feed back, like, 50% of your stored energy to the grid. You get to drive to work in the morning just fine (where you can charge your battery again, for free-or-less), and the (very little) you got paid for half-discharging your car during the night definitely did contribute to lowering prices during that time as well...
- dns_snek 3y ago
  The only problem is that these assumptions rely on non-existent infrastructure which costs a ton of money to build and maintain. The overwhelming majority of parking spots don't offer EV charging, so people would have to charge their car at night when energy is expensive. Even if we did have EV charging available everywhere, excess of energy during times of peak production is the reason why energy might be cheap or free. As soon as you actually start utilizing that excess, the prices will stabilize around the average market rate.