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App store to be 'split in two' ahead of EU iPhone sideloading deadline: report

117 points by thm 3y ago

acd 3y ago
This will allow virtualization software to run on ios now its banned by app store rules. Also this will allow alternative app stores. A phone is like a PC just that its locked boot loader, locked operating system.
pprotas 3y ago
What does this mean in practice? How will the EU app store be different from the global one? Do we have more info on this other than this rumor article? The link to the "Power On" newsletter shows me a half-loaded page that talks about the Apple Vision Pro, there is no mention of the App Store. Quality journalism.
rvz 3y ago
I hear that the scammers, grifters, wallet drainers, SIM swappers and the malware and the ransomware industry are rejoicing with another gateway into expanding their business into targeting a massive market of iPhone users just like they have dominated the Android malware market for decades. They are planning their market expansion into delivering their ransomware onto iOS. It is a sad day for security but what a wonderful opportunity for ransomware authors.
- fsflover 3y ago
  I heard that living outside of prison was also very dangerous. You are not protected well by the strong walls and professional guards.
  - WesolyKubeczek 3y ago
    In a manner of speaking, you're not wrong...
- lern_too_spel 3y ago
  You heard from somebody who doesn't know what they're talking about. In the same vein, I heard that vaccines cause autism.
  - cscurmudgeon 3y ago
    [flagged]
    - fsflover 3y ago
      But did the research confirm that the closed App Store makes the difference?
      - cayleyh 3y ago
        I'm interested in this as well. There is anecdotal evidence that allowing side loading and 3rd party app stores makes the ecosystem less secure and makes it more difficult to respond to threats (volume of android infections vs. iOS, as well as case-by-case analysis of specific malware that is done by security companies), but I've never seen a more comprehensive review of HOW malware gets installed on devices (vectors), to be able to quantify the impact of closed vs. open app loading. Anyone seen an actual decent review of this?
    - lern_too_spel 3y ago
      So you heard from what's basically a glorified blog post in a pay-to-publish journal written by a primary author who works for a university run by the YMCA. Thanks for citing your sources. I also heard that the world is flat.
- aronhegedus 3y ago
  Good point, but a whole new side of iPhone apps will also open up now
- AlexandrB 3y ago
  I used to be more sympathetic to Apple here, but it's not like the App Store isn't full of scammers and grifters already[1][2]. Definitely will be interesting to see what happens next. [1] https://old.reddit.com/r/apple/comments/11tw577/how_come_apple_allows_predatory_scam_apps_on_the/ https://old.reddit.com/r/apple/comments/11tw577/how_come_app... [2] https://mashable.com/article/apple-mac-app-store-scam-forces-paid-subscriptions https://mashable.com/article/apple-mac-app-store-scam-forces...
- eviks 3y ago
  Good that Apple has stellar reputation in that regard with none of that nonsense in the official App Store, so no sane consumer will leave this paradise for a tiny discount!
- praisewhitey 3y ago
  Where did you hear this?
- cynicalsecurity 3y ago
  Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety.
threeseed 3y ago
There are two interesting questions: a) Will Apple not allow apps on the official App Store if they appear on third party ones. b) How will Apple collect their commission. There is nothing in the regulation that says that they can't continue to do this.
- pavlov 3y ago
  "a) Will Apple not allow apps on the official App Store if they appear on third party ones." That would look very much like an anti-competitive move to the same EU regulators who are forcing Apple to open the store for competition reasons. Apple can continue to enforce their own rules on their own store, but demanding exclusivity probably isn't an option for them.
- gjsman-1000 3y ago
  > a) Will Apple not allow apps on the official App Store if they appear on third party ones. The EU almost certainly wouldn't allow it. > b) How will Apple collect their commission. There is nothing in the regulation that says that they can't continue to do this. See Denmark which has an App Store carveout for in-app purchases within dating apps. Basically, Apple wants records and reserves the right to audit. Considering this is more than in-app purchases, I would expect a requirement for an Apple Developer account and a legal agreement to get a process similar to notarization on macOS.
  - threeseed 3y ago
    It will be interesting if it's the Denmark model or whether they put the responsibility on third party app stores to supply this data to Apple on behalf of the hosted apps. Either way third party app stores should end up being noticeably more expensive than using the official. Especially once they start having to deal with fraud, chargebacks etc.
    - dickersnoodle 3y ago
      And when they start seeing that extra expense they'll go whining to the EU regulators again.
endisneigh 3y ago
Does EU have an alternative to android and iOS? Is Symbian a thing still or have they given up?
- gjsman-1000 3y ago
  Symbian's last release was over a decade ago. You may be thinking of Sailfish, which is still coming along, but... not a contender anytime soon.
- fsflover 3y ago
  GNU/Linux phones exist, Librem 5 and Pinephone.
  - endisneigh 3y ago
    Are those made by the EU though? Pinephone looks like Hong Kong and the other SF.
    - andruby 3y ago
      iOS isn't made by the US, nor is Android. They are made by Apple and Google. Two companies with HQ's in the US.
FredPret 3y ago
Can't wait to not use anything but the official app store. I'm paying extra for the walled garden, not despite it!
- ethbr1 3y ago
  That's a great choice to be able to make.
  - FredPret 3y ago
    I could always buy an Android. The walled garden is one of Apple's (on mobile at least) selling points
    - lnxg33k1 3y ago
      Where is this walled garden claim on their marketing stuff?
      - dcwca 3y ago
        Security and privacy mentioned constantly throughout marketing materials
        lnxg33k1 3y ago
        So their macbooks are insecure because they accept any package installed? Seems like a weak argument and an even weaker security model, has it worked ever security through obscurity/ black box? Should I avoid surfing through the web on non approved websites? Seems like they made a weak system security wise
        mdhb 3y ago
        It’s because it is actually a somewhat bullshit security model that basically boils down to checking what APIs are you using in your code. The next generation of runtimes (wasm for example) have this built in out of the box.
lnxg33k1 3y ago
https://forums.macrumors.com/threads/app-store-to-be-split-in-two-ahead-of-eu-iphone-sideloading-deadline.2416395/post-32855701 https://forums.macrumors.com/threads/app-store-to-be-split-i... Someone has enough knowledge of human brain to explain this form of life way of thinking?
- dylan604 3y ago
  Not really sure specifically, but the comments in that thread are comical. "Others apps will stay outside to avoid Apple review process. Bugs and deliberate surveillance will run rampant. " Yup, exactly, but...only to people that choose to actively use these other app stores. If these secondary app stores do not attempt to verify and defend against malicious apps, then they will hopefully be branded as such. For those that choose to continue using them, I have a very tiny violin here ready to play a song of sympathy.
  - bb123 3y ago
    I do not relish the idea of having to download Facebook/Instagram/WhatsApp directly from a 3rd party store. For me Apple standing between sketchy devs like Zuck-co and my phone is a feature not a bug.
    - dylan604 3y ago
      If you see apps only appearing in 3rd party stores and not on the Apple store, then that would be a huge red flag. Hopefully, there will be someone looking to make a name for themselves that would download the binaries from each store it is available and test for any differences. Those looking to avoid the cut paid to Apple seem to get all of the attention, but it's these more nefarious things that scare the bejeebus out of me. I don't even use apps from Apple's store because of the shit devs pull. No way in hell would I use something unregulated
    - smoldesu 3y ago
      From United States v. American Tel. (1983): > The threat to competition that is claimed to be posed by AT&T in this industry is that, through the use of cross-subsidization and customer discrimination, it will use its power in the interexchange market to disadvantage competing electronic publishers. While the possibility of cross-subsidization is as remote here as it is with respect to other subjects considered herein, there is a real danger that AT&T will use its control of the interexchange network to undermine competing publishing ventures. Sounds familiar, I wonder how things ended for Ma Bell?
zamadatix 3y ago
The "Power On" newsletter linked as a source in the article doesn't actually seem to contain anything about the topic it's said to discuss?
- CharlesW 3y ago
  I think the link is wrong, and that it's supposed to be this: https://www.bloomberg.com/news/newsletters/2024-01-07/apple-2024-plans-challenges-gen-ai-vision-pro-china-sales-app-store-changes-lr3k9p8p https://www.bloomberg.com/news/newsletters/2024-01-07/apple-...
  - zamadatix 3y ago
    That link makes much more sense. Thank you!
m3kw9 3y ago
I love that Apple is inconveniencing people that tries to skirt around their ecosystem built to protect them.
- paulddraper 3y ago
  > built to protect them Yes, Apple takes 30% for "protection."
  - m3kw9 3y ago
    Who hosts your apps for download and world wide distribution? Also the infrastructure for payments from buyer to you and in app purchase/ refunds, security? Just tip of the iceberg, I suppose you don’t like paying taxes to your government
    - throwitaway1123 3y ago
      > I suppose you don’t like paying taxes to your government The fact that the closest comparison people have to the App Store racket is a sovereign government (the most powerful entities on Earth) is a pretty bad sign from an antitrust perspective.
- Krssst 3y ago
  Protected from installing a web browser with a different engine?
  - infotainment 3y ago
    Of all the App Store problems, this one strikes me as by far the most egregious. If Microsoft couldn't bundle IE in the 90s, then Apple certainly shouldn't be able to completely prevent installation of Safari competitors.
mortenjorck 3y ago
There’s a lot of talking past each other about security, but the big technical question in my mind is: Apple must plan to implement MacOS's Gatekeeper for third-party iOS app stores, right? Is there anything in the DMA that would preclude requiring notarized binaries?
jedberg 3y ago
For everyone complaining about the security issues, there is nothing that stops Apple from throwing up a ton of warnings for apps that didn't come from their App Store. "This app came from a third party, it can download all your private information and has not been reviewed by Apple". Pop a warning every single time it accesses contacts or location, don't allow third party apps outside the App Store to be granted ongoing permissions to anything, etc. They can still do a lot to make the third party App Store experience much less appealing to developers than the App Store path and still be within the letter of the law. And I'm sure they will. (amusing side note, every time I write App Store autocorrect keeps capitalizing it for me)
- jasode 3y ago
  >, there is nothing that stops Apple from throwing up a ton of warnings for apps that didn't come from their App Store. [...] Pop a warning every single time it accesses contacts or location, don't allow third party apps outside the App Store to be granted ongoing permissions to anything, etc. But then why wouldn't EU later consider those high-friction "warnings" and security firewalls to be anti-competitive because it doesn't let 3rd-party apps be on equal footing as Apple's Official App Store? Is there precedence from previous rulings analogous to this Apple situation to predict what EU would pursue depending on how Apple follows the "letter of the law" instead of the "spirit of the law"?
  - bluish29 3y ago
    > This app came from a third party, it can download all your private information and has not been reviewed by Apple Why would you consider it "anticompetitive"? I think Apple has a good claim that this is a factual statement that is used as a security warning as a core OS feature. Google have something like this when you sideload (or allow sideloading option, don't remember exactly when you get these warnings) and EU did not consider it "anti-competitive" (at least yet).
    - abhibeckert 3y ago
      > I think Apple has a good claim that this is a factual statement that is used as a security warning I would hope that the technical protections protecting user data apply to all apps and not just apps that come from Apple's store. If an app from the store wants to access your contacts or your location, the user has to approve it. Should be exactly the same with side loaded apps. Vender lock in such as a core operating system feature that can only be accessed with Apple approved apps would be blatant anti-competitive behaviour. > Google have something like this when you sideload (or allow sideloading option, don't remember exactly when you get these warnings) and EU did not consider it "anti-competitive" (at least yet). The EU and the USA have both found those warnings to be anti-competitive. In the EU's case, they have the same deadline as Apple to fix it. In the USA, Google was recently fined several hundred million dollars (and will also be required to change the alerts). I'm sure there will be some warnings, but it they will have to be reasonable - such as "[Name] is an app you downloaded from the internet. Are you sure you want to open it? Safari downloaded this app today from [Website URL]" - that's the message you get right now side-loading an app on a Mac, I think it would be hard for Apple to justify anything more "scary" than that.
cheradenine_uk 3y ago
> The DMA is expected to force Apple to make a range of significant changes to the way the App Store, FaceTime, and Siri work in Europe I'm not sure that's going to fly. My understanding is that the DMA, like the DMCA, applies to EU citizens wherever they happen to be.
- vlovich123 3y ago
  I think Apple has enough lawyers advising them that most likely this is poor/fuzzy reporting and we shouldn’t jump to conclusions about the specifics of how this will all work from external reporting of rumors.
- postingawayonhn 3y ago
  > in Europe Surely in reality that will mean if your account/device is set to the European region.
- extraduder_ire 3y ago
  EU law applies to residents, not citizens. You don't get to avoid other EU regulations because you're a turk living in france, just like you don't have to follow it just because you're a french person living in turkey. DMCA is a US law also, GDPR, working time directive, or something would have probably been a better example to go with.
DavideNL 3y ago
I’m very curious to see if/how Apple will “bully” anyone who installs apps from a 3th party AppStore - in other words, nudge them back to Apple’s native AppStore. Much like how Spotify has been painful to use the past 10 years, compared to Apple Music, for example. AirPlay did work in Spotify, but not natively on the HomePod like Apple Music, etc.
- bzzzt 3y ago
  If anything is painful it's the complete bag of shit the Apple Music app is. Spotify doesn't have the best UI, but it's a lot less infuriating to navigate. You can't expect Apple to integrate every music service on the HomePod and I don't see how that's related with the App Store. If you want Spotify there are lots of other speakers with Spotify connect and no Apple Music - should they be regulated too or is it just about punishing Apple?
  - DavideNL 3y ago
    > ”You can't expect Apple to integrate every music service on the HomePod” Why not? It’s already possible to do this _now_, the limitation was just another example of Apple crippling competitors… (Spotify has not implemented it in their app yet, but other music apps have.) You can also now set the default Music app HomePod/Siri will use. Luckily EU regulators and others are stepping in to stop Apple in this anti-competitive behavior.
  - blackoil 3y ago
    > You can't expect Apple to integrate every music service on the HomePod Technically, they can provide a standard interface and registration for music apps to comply with. Legally, if EU believes iPhone via Airplay is being used by Apple to give Music unfair advantage over competition, they can require this or ask Music to be split in a different company.
- graftak 3y ago
  Spotify not working properly on HomePod is on them because the tools to properly integrate third party music apps have been available for almost 5 years now. https://developer.apple.com/videos/play/tech-talks/10854/ https://developer.apple.com/videos/play/tech-talks/10854/ https://developer.apple.com/videos/play/wwdc2019/207 https://developer.apple.com/videos/play/wwdc2019/207
sumuyuda 3y ago
I’m confused by what the AppStore being split means. Each country already has it’s own AppStore with specific apps, and reviews. Will developers have to submit to the Apple Worldwide AppStore that excludes EU countries? Then submit a separate build to the Apple EU AppStore?
- perryizgr8 3y ago
  > Each country already has it’s own AppStore with specific apps, and reviews. Is that true? I thought it is one app store, they just filter the content according to your region, language, etc. After all I don't have to install another app store app (unlike Amazon shopping which has different apps for different regions) when I go to another country.
  - sumuyuda 3y ago
    You are correct in that you don’t have to install a separate front end app, but the apps are segregated on the backend. Apps are region locked creating different versions of the AppStore. Plenty developers only release their app on a specific region.
    - perryizgr8 3y ago
      > but the apps are segregated on the backend This is kind of subjective isn't it then? I can argue that any app that shows different content to different users is actually a separate app for each user, since all the data is "segregated in the backend". IMO the proper measure of this has to be the user-facing actual app. Not some abstract concept of an app in the backend.
- neximo64 3y ago
  It means basically that Apple won't let these App store channels to work outside the EU. Their strategy is to reduce the economies of scale that you can achieve, and thus make them less attractive since as a developer you could not sell as much on those app stores.
pentagrama 3y ago
I'm in favor of this. That's awesome for me. But my grandpa may ended up installing sketchy apps. Let's see how Apple handle UX and security here.
librasteve 3y ago
at last something good comes out of brexit!
reaperducer 3y ago
I wonder how this will affect people with both EU and non-EU iTunes/App Store accounts. I have five accounts in five different countries, from a time in my life when I moved around more. Two of those accounts are in countries within the EU, but they're not "EU App Store," they're specific to the nation in which they were opened. Maybe the two EU accounts will be merged into a new EU Store. Or maybe that's a bad idea since history has shown that nations and join and leave the EU a lot more often than anyone anticipated.
rkagerer 3y ago
Time for me to move my iPhone account to a European address.
rkagerer 3y ago
Anyone know if Cydia Store or whatever it was will make a reappearance?
scary-size 3y ago
Does that imply that I don’t need to sign up for the Developer Program. I’m building a simple app for myself that I planned to distribute via TestFlight. The $99 scared me off a bit.
Am4TIfIsER0ppos 3y ago
"Split in two"? Didn't Apple say they had five already?
Alifatisk 3y ago
Would love to be able to share my Flutter apps without Apples obstacles. I hope this solves it.

117 points by thm 3y ago

acd 3y ago

This will allow virtualization software to run on ios now its banned by app store rules. Also this will allow alternative app stores. A phone is like a PC just that its locked boot loader, locked operating system.

pprotas 3y ago

What does this mean in practice? How will the EU app store be different from the global one? Do we have more info on this other than this rumor article? The link to the "Power On" newsletter shows me a half-loaded page that talks about the Apple Vision Pro, there is no mention of the App Store. Quality journalism.

rvz 3y ago

I hear that the scammers, grifters, wallet drainers, SIM swappers and the malware and the ransomware industry are rejoicing with another gateway into expanding their business into targeting a massive market of iPhone users just like they have dominated the Android malware market for decades. They are planning their market expansion into delivering their ransomware onto iOS. It is a sad day for security but what a wonderful opportunity for ransomware authors.

fsflover 3y ago
I heard that living outside of prison was also very dangerous. You are not protected well by the strong walls and professional guards.
- WesolyKubeczek 3y ago
  In a manner of speaking, you're not wrong...
lern_too_spel 3y ago
You heard from somebody who doesn't know what they're talking about. In the same vein, I heard that vaccines cause autism.
- cscurmudgeon 3y ago
  [flagged]
  - fsflover 3y ago
    But did the research confirm that the closed App Store makes the difference?
    - cayleyh 3y ago
      I'm interested in this as well. There is anecdotal evidence that allowing side loading and 3rd party app stores makes the ecosystem less secure and makes it more difficult to respond to threats (volume of android infections vs. iOS, as well as case-by-case analysis of specific malware that is done by security companies), but I've never seen a more comprehensive review of HOW malware gets installed on devices (vectors), to be able to quantify the impact of closed vs. open app loading. Anyone seen an actual decent review of this?
  - lern_too_spel 3y ago
    So you heard from what's basically a glorified blog post in a pay-to-publish journal written by a primary author who works for a university run by the YMCA. Thanks for citing your sources. I also heard that the world is flat.
aronhegedus 3y ago
Good point, but a whole new side of iPhone apps will also open up now
AlexandrB 3y ago
I used to be more sympathetic to Apple here, but it's not like the App Store isn't full of scammers and grifters already[1][2]. Definitely will be interesting to see what happens next. [1] https://old.reddit.com/r/apple/comments/11tw577/how_come_apple_allows_predatory_scam_apps_on_the/ https://old.reddit.com/r/apple/comments/11tw577/how_come_app... [2] https://mashable.com/article/apple-mac-app-store-scam-forces-paid-subscriptions https://mashable.com/article/apple-mac-app-store-scam-forces...
eviks 3y ago
Good that Apple has stellar reputation in that regard with none of that nonsense in the official App Store, so no sane consumer will leave this paradise for a tiny discount!
praisewhitey 3y ago
Where did you hear this?
cynicalsecurity 3y ago
Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety.

threeseed 3y ago

There are two interesting questions: a) Will Apple not allow apps on the official App Store if they appear on third party ones. b) How will Apple collect their commission. There is nothing in the regulation that says that they can't continue to do this.

pavlov 3y ago
"a) Will Apple not allow apps on the official App Store if they appear on third party ones." That would look very much like an anti-competitive move to the same EU regulators who are forcing Apple to open the store for competition reasons. Apple can continue to enforce their own rules on their own store, but demanding exclusivity probably isn't an option for them.
gjsman-1000 3y ago
> a) Will Apple not allow apps on the official App Store if they appear on third party ones. The EU almost certainly wouldn't allow it. > b) How will Apple collect their commission. There is nothing in the regulation that says that they can't continue to do this. See Denmark which has an App Store carveout for in-app purchases within dating apps. Basically, Apple wants records and reserves the right to audit. Considering this is more than in-app purchases, I would expect a requirement for an Apple Developer account and a legal agreement to get a process similar to notarization on macOS.
- threeseed 3y ago
  It will be interesting if it's the Denmark model or whether they put the responsibility on third party app stores to supply this data to Apple on behalf of the hosted apps. Either way third party app stores should end up being noticeably more expensive than using the official. Especially once they start having to deal with fraud, chargebacks etc.
  - dickersnoodle 3y ago
    And when they start seeing that extra expense they'll go whining to the EU regulators again.

endisneigh 3y ago

Does EU have an alternative to android and iOS? Is Symbian a thing still or have they given up?

gjsman-1000 3y ago
Symbian's last release was over a decade ago. You may be thinking of Sailfish, which is still coming along, but... not a contender anytime soon.
fsflover 3y ago
GNU/Linux phones exist, Librem 5 and Pinephone.
- endisneigh 3y ago
  Are those made by the EU though? Pinephone looks like Hong Kong and the other SF.
  - andruby 3y ago
    iOS isn't made by the US, nor is Android. They are made by Apple and Google. Two companies with HQ's in the US.

FredPret 3y ago

Can't wait to not use anything but the official app store. I'm paying extra for the walled garden, not despite it!

ethbr1 3y ago
That's a great choice to be able to make.
- FredPret 3y ago
  I could always buy an Android. The walled garden is one of Apple's (on mobile at least) selling points
  - lnxg33k1 3y ago
    Where is this walled garden claim on their marketing stuff?
    - dcwca 3y ago
      Security and privacy mentioned constantly throughout marketing materials
      - lnxg33k1 3y ago
        So their macbooks are insecure because they accept any package installed? Seems like a weak argument and an even weaker security model, has it worked ever security through obscurity/ black box? Should I avoid surfing through the web on non approved websites? Seems like they made a weak system security wise
        mdhb 3y ago
        It’s because it is actually a somewhat bullshit security model that basically boils down to checking what APIs are you using in your code. The next generation of runtimes (wasm for example) have this built in out of the box.

lnxg33k1 3y ago

https://forums.macrumors.com/threads/app-store-to-be-split-in-two-ahead-of-eu-iphone-sideloading-deadline.2416395/post-32855701 https://forums.macrumors.com/threads/app-store-to-be-split-i... Someone has enough knowledge of human brain to explain this form of life way of thinking?

dylan604 3y ago
Not really sure specifically, but the comments in that thread are comical. "Others apps will stay outside to avoid Apple review process. Bugs and deliberate surveillance will run rampant. " Yup, exactly, but...only to people that choose to actively use these other app stores. If these secondary app stores do not attempt to verify and defend against malicious apps, then they will hopefully be branded as such. For those that choose to continue using them, I have a very tiny violin here ready to play a song of sympathy.
- bb123 3y ago
  I do not relish the idea of having to download Facebook/Instagram/WhatsApp directly from a 3rd party store. For me Apple standing between sketchy devs like Zuck-co and my phone is a feature not a bug.
  - dylan604 3y ago
    If you see apps only appearing in 3rd party stores and not on the Apple store, then that would be a huge red flag. Hopefully, there will be someone looking to make a name for themselves that would download the binaries from each store it is available and test for any differences. Those looking to avoid the cut paid to Apple seem to get all of the attention, but it's these more nefarious things that scare the bejeebus out of me. I don't even use apps from Apple's store because of the shit devs pull. No way in hell would I use something unregulated
  - smoldesu 3y ago
    From United States v. American Tel. (1983): > The threat to competition that is claimed to be posed by AT&T in this industry is that, through the use of cross-subsidization and customer discrimination, it will use its power in the interexchange market to disadvantage competing electronic publishers. While the possibility of cross-subsidization is as remote here as it is with respect to other subjects considered herein, there is a real danger that AT&T will use its control of the interexchange network to undermine competing publishing ventures. Sounds familiar, I wonder how things ended for Ma Bell?

zamadatix 3y ago

The "Power On" newsletter linked as a source in the article doesn't actually seem to contain anything about the topic it's said to discuss?

CharlesW 3y ago
I think the link is wrong, and that it's supposed to be this: https://www.bloomberg.com/news/newsletters/2024-01-07/apple-2024-plans-challenges-gen-ai-vision-pro-china-sales-app-store-changes-lr3k9p8p https://www.bloomberg.com/news/newsletters/2024-01-07/apple-...
- zamadatix 3y ago
  That link makes much more sense. Thank you!

m3kw9 3y ago

I love that Apple is inconveniencing people that tries to skirt around their ecosystem built to protect them.

paulddraper 3y ago
> built to protect them Yes, Apple takes 30% for "protection."
- m3kw9 3y ago
  Who hosts your apps for download and world wide distribution? Also the infrastructure for payments from buyer to you and in app purchase/ refunds, security? Just tip of the iceberg, I suppose you don’t like paying taxes to your government
  - throwitaway1123 3y ago
    > I suppose you don’t like paying taxes to your government The fact that the closest comparison people have to the App Store racket is a sovereign government (the most powerful entities on Earth) is a pretty bad sign from an antitrust perspective.
Krssst 3y ago
Protected from installing a web browser with a different engine?
- infotainment 3y ago
  Of all the App Store problems, this one strikes me as by far the most egregious. If Microsoft couldn't bundle IE in the 90s, then Apple certainly shouldn't be able to completely prevent installation of Safari competitors.

mortenjorck 3y ago

There’s a lot of talking past each other about security, but the big technical question in my mind is: Apple must plan to implement MacOS's Gatekeeper for third-party iOS app stores, right? Is there anything in the DMA that would preclude requiring notarized binaries?

jedberg 3y ago

For everyone complaining about the security issues, there is nothing that stops Apple from throwing up a ton of warnings for apps that didn't come from their App Store. "This app came from a third party, it can download all your private information and has not been reviewed by Apple". Pop a warning every single time it accesses contacts or location, don't allow third party apps outside the App Store to be granted ongoing permissions to anything, etc. They can still do a lot to make the third party App Store experience much less appealing to developers than the App Store path and still be within the letter of the law. And I'm sure they will. (amusing side note, every time I write App Store autocorrect keeps capitalizing it for me)

jasode 3y ago
>, there is nothing that stops Apple from throwing up a ton of warnings for apps that didn't come from their App Store. [...] Pop a warning every single time it accesses contacts or location, don't allow third party apps outside the App Store to be granted ongoing permissions to anything, etc. But then why wouldn't EU later consider those high-friction "warnings" and security firewalls to be anti-competitive because it doesn't let 3rd-party apps be on equal footing as Apple's Official App Store? Is there precedence from previous rulings analogous to this Apple situation to predict what EU would pursue depending on how Apple follows the "letter of the law" instead of the "spirit of the law"?
- bluish29 3y ago
  > This app came from a third party, it can download all your private information and has not been reviewed by Apple Why would you consider it "anticompetitive"? I think Apple has a good claim that this is a factual statement that is used as a security warning as a core OS feature. Google have something like this when you sideload (or allow sideloading option, don't remember exactly when you get these warnings) and EU did not consider it "anti-competitive" (at least yet).
  - abhibeckert 3y ago
    > I think Apple has a good claim that this is a factual statement that is used as a security warning I would hope that the technical protections protecting user data apply to all apps and not just apps that come from Apple's store. If an app from the store wants to access your contacts or your location, the user has to approve it. Should be exactly the same with side loaded apps. Vender lock in such as a core operating system feature that can only be accessed with Apple approved apps would be blatant anti-competitive behaviour. > Google have something like this when you sideload (or allow sideloading option, don't remember exactly when you get these warnings) and EU did not consider it "anti-competitive" (at least yet). The EU and the USA have both found those warnings to be anti-competitive. In the EU's case, they have the same deadline as Apple to fix it. In the USA, Google was recently fined several hundred million dollars (and will also be required to change the alerts). I'm sure there will be some warnings, but it they will have to be reasonable - such as "[Name] is an app you downloaded from the internet. Are you sure you want to open it? Safari downloaded this app today from [Website URL]" - that's the message you get right now side-loading an app on a Mac, I think it would be hard for Apple to justify anything more "scary" than that.

cheradenine_uk 3y ago

> The DMA is expected to force Apple to make a range of significant changes to the way the App Store, FaceTime, and Siri work in Europe I'm not sure that's going to fly. My understanding is that the DMA, like the DMCA, applies to EU citizens wherever they happen to be.

vlovich123 3y ago
I think Apple has enough lawyers advising them that most likely this is poor/fuzzy reporting and we shouldn’t jump to conclusions about the specifics of how this will all work from external reporting of rumors.
postingawayonhn 3y ago
> in Europe Surely in reality that will mean if your account/device is set to the European region.
extraduder_ire 3y ago
EU law applies to residents, not citizens. You don't get to avoid other EU regulations because you're a turk living in france, just like you don't have to follow it just because you're a french person living in turkey. DMCA is a US law also, GDPR, working time directive, or something would have probably been a better example to go with.

DavideNL 3y ago

I’m very curious to see if/how Apple will “bully” anyone who installs apps from a 3th party AppStore - in other words, nudge them back to Apple’s native AppStore. Much like how Spotify has been painful to use the past 10 years, compared to Apple Music, for example. AirPlay did work in Spotify, but not natively on the HomePod like Apple Music, etc.

bzzzt 3y ago
If anything is painful it's the complete bag of shit the Apple Music app is. Spotify doesn't have the best UI, but it's a lot less infuriating to navigate. You can't expect Apple to integrate every music service on the HomePod and I don't see how that's related with the App Store. If you want Spotify there are lots of other speakers with Spotify connect and no Apple Music - should they be regulated too or is it just about punishing Apple?
- DavideNL 3y ago
  > ”You can't expect Apple to integrate every music service on the HomePod” Why not? It’s already possible to do this _now_, the limitation was just another example of Apple crippling competitors… (Spotify has not implemented it in their app yet, but other music apps have.) You can also now set the default Music app HomePod/Siri will use. Luckily EU regulators and others are stepping in to stop Apple in this anti-competitive behavior.
- blackoil 3y ago
  > You can't expect Apple to integrate every music service on the HomePod Technically, they can provide a standard interface and registration for music apps to comply with. Legally, if EU believes iPhone via Airplay is being used by Apple to give Music unfair advantage over competition, they can require this or ask Music to be split in a different company.
graftak 3y ago
Spotify not working properly on HomePod is on them because the tools to properly integrate third party music apps have been available for almost 5 years now. https://developer.apple.com/videos/play/tech-talks/10854/ https://developer.apple.com/videos/play/tech-talks/10854/ https://developer.apple.com/videos/play/wwdc2019/207 https://developer.apple.com/videos/play/wwdc2019/207

sumuyuda 3y ago

I’m confused by what the AppStore being split means. Each country already has it’s own AppStore with specific apps, and reviews. Will developers have to submit to the Apple Worldwide AppStore that excludes EU countries? Then submit a separate build to the Apple EU AppStore?

perryizgr8 3y ago
> Each country already has it’s own AppStore with specific apps, and reviews. Is that true? I thought it is one app store, they just filter the content according to your region, language, etc. After all I don't have to install another app store app (unlike Amazon shopping which has different apps for different regions) when I go to another country.
- sumuyuda 3y ago
  You are correct in that you don’t have to install a separate front end app, but the apps are segregated on the backend. Apps are region locked creating different versions of the AppStore. Plenty developers only release their app on a specific region.
  - perryizgr8 3y ago
    > but the apps are segregated on the backend This is kind of subjective isn't it then? I can argue that any app that shows different content to different users is actually a separate app for each user, since all the data is "segregated in the backend". IMO the proper measure of this has to be the user-facing actual app. Not some abstract concept of an app in the backend.
neximo64 3y ago
It means basically that Apple won't let these App store channels to work outside the EU. Their strategy is to reduce the economies of scale that you can achieve, and thus make them less attractive since as a developer you could not sell as much on those app stores.

pentagrama 3y ago

I'm in favor of this. That's awesome for me. But my grandpa may ended up installing sketchy apps. Let's see how Apple handle UX and security here.

librasteve 3y ago

at last something good comes out of brexit!

reaperducer 3y ago

I wonder how this will affect people with both EU and non-EU iTunes/App Store accounts. I have five accounts in five different countries, from a time in my life when I moved around more. Two of those accounts are in countries within the EU, but they're not "EU App Store," they're specific to the nation in which they were opened. Maybe the two EU accounts will be merged into a new EU Store. Or maybe that's a bad idea since history has shown that nations and join and leave the EU a lot more often than anyone anticipated.

rkagerer 3y ago

Time for me to move my iPhone account to a European address.

rkagerer 3y ago

Anyone know if Cydia Store or whatever it was will make a reappearance?

scary-size 3y ago

Does that imply that I don’t need to sign up for the Developer Program. I’m building a simple app for myself that I planned to distribute via TestFlight. The $99 scared me off a bit.

Am4TIfIsER0ppos 3y ago

"Split in two"? Didn't Apple say they had five already?

Alifatisk 3y ago

Would love to be able to share my Flutter apps without Apples obstacles. I hope this solves it.