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Worth watching even if you skip to the last couple of minutes, where he tests a Game of Life scenario in a way that is not comparable to anything I've seen done

Worth watching even if you skip to the last couple of minutes, where he tests a Game of Life scenario in a way that is not comparable to anything I've seen done with any other programming language. This power that Smalltalk systems have where the code runs in a GUI that is also the editor/debugger/etc has deeply fascinated me recently. At the same time it makes me kind of sad, because it feels like we're all stuck writing code with a hand tied to our back. Almost makes me think that there's a happy alternative coding universe where the Smalltalk way is the default way, and a couple of weirdos are using separate IDEs/editors and restart their program on every change, or think they're smart if they're running something as primitive as a REPL. The reason why I'm not just diving in and never looking back is that it seems like such a big investment, and that I'm so comfy with my (very) extended Neovim setup. And I'd like to be able to create applications that run without shipping the entire Smalltalk VM. And I'd like to actually understand a tool that I'd have to dive into that deeply, and I think I'll never have the time to truly understand all of the VM, the classes, etc. Maybe instead, I should just create my own language that contains its own code editor. Seems like almost the same time investment, but maybe more satisfying? Sigh... Anyway, here is some other related interesting material: - Bret Victor - Inventing on Principle (Always funny to hear the crowd go nuts when he does the live game editing time thingy.) - Pretty much any Alan Kay video. - Dan Ingalls his "Lively Kernel", which seems to me like it's pretty much the same as a Smalltalk system, but where you code in JavaScript, and it runs in the browser.

pjmlp 3y ago
As addedum, this experience was also available across the other Xerox PARC workstations, namely Interlisp-D, Mesa (XDE), Mesa/Cedar.
delusional 3y ago
I think this split is way overstated. Consider the case where you fundamentally modify the invariants of an object. All you existing instances might now be in some inconsistent state. One way to avoid this is to enforce some unity of code and state. If we instead of modifying all the existing instances just modify instances created from this point forwards, we don't risk messing with the invariants. Well now we have a standard unix model. The executables are "classes" that get "instantiated" (exec'd) into "instances" or processes.
brabel 3y ago
> This power that Smalltalk systems have where the code runs in a GUI that is also the editor/debugger/etc has deeply fascinated me recently. Have you tried emacs? > And I'd like to actually understand a tool that I'd have to dive into that deeply, and I think I'll never have the time to truly understand all of the VM, the classes, etc. I've recently tried to do that myself with Smalltalk via the Glamorous Toolkit[1] (a beautiful, modern Smalltalk environment based on Pharo). Because the programming environment itself comes with a Book teaching it, you can basically just read it as a normal digital book, but with the superpower that everything is editable and interactive: you can change the book itself, every code example is runnable and you can inspect the result objects right there, change it, modify the view for it... they say it's "moldable development" because you almost literally mold the environment as you write your code and learn about the platform. > And I'd like to be able to create applications that run without shipping the entire Smalltalk VM. That's why even though I really enjoyed SmallTalk, I can't really see it as anything more than a curiosity. I tried using it at least for my own occasional data exploration because it has good visualisation capabilities and super easy to use HTTP client/JSON parser etc., but the system is so heavy (1GB+ of RAM) that I couldn't justify keeping it open all the time like I do with emacs, on the offchance that I might need to use it for some small task. Anyway, perhaps that's something you might be interested in. [1] https://gtoolkit.com/ https://gtoolkit.com/
- bmitc 3y ago
  > Have you tried emacs? Here we go ...
  - wudangmonk 3y ago
    This isn't a vim vs emacs debate. We're talking about smalltalk and what do you know! emacs was made to resemble the big expensive lisp machines which were in turn made in the image of smalltalk but with lisp as the language of choice. With this in mind, recommending emacs when someone states that they are interested in a system where the "code runs in a GUI that is also the editor/debugger/etc" does not seem out of place at all to me. Pharo can also be recommended but its a lot more resource hungry and with a mouse centric workflow compared to emacs which is keyboard focused.
d0mine 3y ago
Python notebooks such as https://marimo.io/ https://marimo.io/ seems to provide many of the same benefits
e12e 3y ago
> And I'd like to be able to create applications that run without shipping the entire Smalltalk VM. There's always a javascript vm... https://squeak.js.org/ https://squeak.js.org/
igouy 3y ago
> without shipping the entire Smalltalk VM Are you OK shipping the entire JVM?

pjmlp 3y ago

As addedum, this experience was also available across the other Xerox PARC workstations, namely Interlisp-D, Mesa (XDE), Mesa/Cedar.

delusional 3y ago

I think this split is way overstated. Consider the case where you fundamentally modify the invariants of an object. All you existing instances might now be in some inconsistent state. One way to avoid this is to enforce some unity of code and state. If we instead of modifying all the existing instances just modify instances created from this point forwards, we don't risk messing with the invariants. Well now we have a standard unix model. The executables are "classes" that get "instantiated" (exec'd) into "instances" or processes.

brabel 3y ago

> This power that Smalltalk systems have where the code runs in a GUI that is also the editor/debugger/etc has deeply fascinated me recently. Have you tried emacs? > And I'd like to actually understand a tool that I'd have to dive into that deeply, and I think I'll never have the time to truly understand all of the VM, the classes, etc. I've recently tried to do that myself with Smalltalk via the Glamorous Toolkit[1] (a beautiful, modern Smalltalk environment based on Pharo). Because the programming environment itself comes with a Book teaching it, you can basically just read it as a normal digital book, but with the superpower that everything is editable and interactive: you can change the book itself, every code example is runnable and you can inspect the result objects right there, change it, modify the view for it... they say it's "moldable development" because you almost literally mold the environment as you write your code and learn about the platform. > And I'd like to be able to create applications that run without shipping the entire Smalltalk VM. That's why even though I really enjoyed SmallTalk, I can't really see it as anything more than a curiosity. I tried using it at least for my own occasional data exploration because it has good visualisation capabilities and super easy to use HTTP client/JSON parser etc., but the system is so heavy (1GB+ of RAM) that I couldn't justify keeping it open all the time like I do with emacs, on the offchance that I might need to use it for some small task. Anyway, perhaps that's something you might be interested in. [1] https://gtoolkit.com/ https://gtoolkit.com/

bmitc 3y ago
> Have you tried emacs? Here we go ...
- wudangmonk 3y ago
  This isn't a vim vs emacs debate. We're talking about smalltalk and what do you know! emacs was made to resemble the big expensive lisp machines which were in turn made in the image of smalltalk but with lisp as the language of choice. With this in mind, recommending emacs when someone states that they are interested in a system where the "code runs in a GUI that is also the editor/debugger/etc" does not seem out of place at all to me. Pharo can also be recommended but its a lot more resource hungry and with a mouse centric workflow compared to emacs which is keyboard focused.

d0mine 3y ago

Python notebooks such as https://marimo.io/ https://marimo.io/ seems to provide many of the same benefits

e12e 3y ago

> And I'd like to be able to create applications that run without shipping the entire Smalltalk VM. There's always a javascript vm... https://squeak.js.org/ https://squeak.js.org/

igouy 3y ago

> without shipping the entire Smalltalk VM Are you OK shipping the entire JVM?