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Having myself spent a period of my life thinking that all the world's problems would vanish if only we all took more LSD, MDMA and DMT... and since realizing th

Having myself spent a period of my life thinking that all the world's problems would vanish if only we all took more LSD, MDMA and DMT... and since realizing that there really is no substitute for honesty, self-sacrifice and hard work... I'm reminded of Hunter S Thompson in Fear and Loathing: ... a generation of permanent cripples, failed seekers, who never understood the essential mystic fallacy of the Acid Culture: the desperate assumption that somebody - or at least some force - is tending the light at the end of the tunnel.

api 3y ago
Most people who try these things briefly entertain these ideas. They are really interesting and have the potential to trigger positive breakthroughs in a person’s thinking. They also have high potential in therapy for things like PTSD and depression. But all you have to do is spend a little time around drug users or pay attention to the discourse in psychedelic friendly circles (Joe Rogan and Russell Brand anyone?) to see that drugs are not some kind of magic enlightenment in a pill. If they were there’d be more enlightened drug users.
- bugglebeetle 3y ago
  There is also the example of the Canadian psychologist, Elliot Barker, who tried to treat criminal psychopaths with LSD, only for researchers to later learn that it made them more psychopathic and re-offend at higher rates.
  - lend000 3y ago
    Interesting, do you have a good source for this? Based on personal experience, it does seem somewhat intuitive that psychedelics would make you be more comfortable being "you", regardless of who you really are.
    - bugglebeetle 3y ago
      It’s covered to a fair extent in Jon Ronson’s The Psychopath Test. I believe this is the retrospective study on rates of recidivism: https://doi.org/10.1007/BF02352266 https://doi.org/10.1007/BF02352266
    - LoganDark 3y ago
      It's not necessarily that psychedelics make you more comfortable with yourself. Psychedelics can reinforce the psychopathic way of thinking. I'm not a psychopath (...as far as I can tell), but I can think similarly to one when sober. For me, LSD can intensify that way of thinking. It can intensify everything, to be fair, but the way you think while on it can be... I guess "conducive to psychopathy"? If a psychopath is missing emotion/conscience and is given LSD, then they can end up with far more ways to manipulate their own thoughts in a way that supports their psychopathy, if that makes any sense.
- k__ 3y ago
  Maybe, it's like with programming. You can code a game, a database, an OS, a framework, a LLM etc. with one tool.
- basil-rash 3y ago
  [dead]
gavinray 3y ago
I had a similar phase myself. Though I still genuinely believe that every person should have a psychedelic experience at least once in their lifetime, as well as a talk-session with close friends while on MDMA. These two things radically shifted my life perspective and resolved a lot of inner issues, both after just a single time. Particularly the psychedelic experience is great for sparking realizations that things like hate, xenophobia, racism, etc. are all so absurd and non-productive.
- basil-rash 3y ago
  Were you racist, xenophobic, and hateful before? If not, your realizations about their productivity aren’t particularly relevant.
  - fasterik 3y ago
    I don't think that's true. Even if someone doesn't explicitly hold those views, one can still be complacent, ignorant, or subtly enabling of them. Seeing things from a different perspective can provide insight into how relevant certain ideas are to the larger picture of humanity.
    - basil-rash 3y ago
      You’re saying the mindset one would have going into it is one of “I’m not personally hateful, xenophobic, or racist, but I can see how those are all logical and productive things to be”? I don’t believe that mindset exists.
      - AndrewKemendo 3y ago
        I think that’s exactly the mindset of most people because they don’t think they’re being racist, xenophobic, etc. If someone were to grow up in an economy built on coal mining with 13 year old miners, and you’re really effective at organizing 13 year old coal miners, then you’re gonna be very productive. Even though everything that you’re doing is existentially bad for everybody, they are all ignorant of it’s harms. So even if temporally coal mining with miners might be the only thing that anyone is aware of to do that is “productive.” You can make no “mistakes” and still lose just from ignorance
jseliger 3y ago
I don't think psychedelics are a panacea but they'll likely help the world move in a positive direction: https://jakeseliger.com/2023/09/25/strange-trip-psychedelics-and-confronting-the-fear-of-death https://jakeseliger.com/2023/09/25/strange-trip-psychedelics.... MDMA may also be the only, or among the few, things that really work in and for couples therapy (it's also not a panacea). Banning it is a travesty. There's an interesting alternative world chronicled in part by Michael Pollan in How to Change Your Mind, and by others, in which psychedelics are integrated into therapy, psychiatry, and other forms of medicine and improvement.
- cubefox 3y ago
  Unlike LSD or psilocybin, MDMA causes addiction, so there is some ground for a ban.
  - LoganDark 3y ago
    The effects of LSD and psilocybin can still sometimes result in some degree of psychological addiction, just not physical dependence. MDMA can cause permanent tolerance and brain damage, and even though there has been plenty of research and testing by harm-reduction communities (like Bluelight), it's still not fully understood how this works or how to guarantee the substance's safety. This is probably why it should stay banned, at least for now. LSD and psilocybin are much safer, in my opinion. I would probably say LSD is the safest, since high doses of psilocybin can render me unconscious, but that could just be me.
    - amanaplanacanal 3y ago
      I'm not sure what good comes from "banning". The people who want to do it are going to do it anyway, but now you have a lot of folks taking unknown substances at unknown doses, and sometimes getting arrested and ending up with a record. Bad all around.
      - LoganDark 3y ago
        Yes, I share this sentiment: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38992990 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38992990 Simply unbanning MDMA with no further action though wouldn't be very productive right now when it still is quite unknown. I hope more research and clinical trials can be done in the future, with all sorts of things and not just MDMA.
photochemsyn 3y ago
Set and setting are critical factors in the outcome of any use of psychedelics, particularly for naive users unfamiliar with the effects. Practically speaking, this means LSD could plausibly be used in both cult brainwashing and cult deprogramming activities. That's why the CIA thought it could be used as a mind control / interrogation tool in the early 1950s (e.g. MKULTRA), while others adopted it as a liberating creative tool for artists (indeed, I once met a classically trained flutist who reported that they found it impossible to improvise over a jazz chord progression until they tried LSD). Personally I think a great many of the problem outcomes with psychedelics is related to consumerism and the desire for quick fixes. A society blanketed with pharmaceutical advertising and indoctrinated with the notion that pills fix health problems will tend to generate individuals who think taking some drug will 'fix' them. A typical outcome for such people is that they try some psychedelic, have a great time, and then run back to the well for another taste, and then have a horrible grim experience, reliving some past personal trauma or consumed with morbid thoughts of death and darkness, etc. - the so-called 'bad trip'. Let alone people who take so much they completely dissociate with sensory reality, a very dangerous situation as they may fall off cliffs, walk into traffic, etc. More often than not, people indoctrinated into consumerist drug use will instead turn to alcohol, opiates, cocaine, amphetamines, benzos, etc. - all drugs with fairly predictable feel-good effects, a variety of negative health effects, and high addiction potential - but not much risk of a 'bad trip'. In contrast, psychedelics have potential for combatting addiction to such drugs because they lead to introspection, self-reflection, and the realization that the short-term feel-good effects of addictive drugs are not worth the long-term consequences - the degradation of ones' mental and physical capabilities, degraded social relationships, loss of emotional control and so on.

api 3y ago

Most people who try these things briefly entertain these ideas. They are really interesting and have the potential to trigger positive breakthroughs in a person’s thinking. They also have high potential in therapy for things like PTSD and depression. But all you have to do is spend a little time around drug users or pay attention to the discourse in psychedelic friendly circles (Joe Rogan and Russell Brand anyone?) to see that drugs are not some kind of magic enlightenment in a pill. If they were there’d be more enlightened drug users.

bugglebeetle 3y ago
There is also the example of the Canadian psychologist, Elliot Barker, who tried to treat criminal psychopaths with LSD, only for researchers to later learn that it made them more psychopathic and re-offend at higher rates.
- lend000 3y ago
  Interesting, do you have a good source for this? Based on personal experience, it does seem somewhat intuitive that psychedelics would make you be more comfortable being "you", regardless of who you really are.
  - bugglebeetle 3y ago
    It’s covered to a fair extent in Jon Ronson’s The Psychopath Test. I believe this is the retrospective study on rates of recidivism: https://doi.org/10.1007/BF02352266 https://doi.org/10.1007/BF02352266
  - LoganDark 3y ago
    It's not necessarily that psychedelics make you more comfortable with yourself. Psychedelics can reinforce the psychopathic way of thinking. I'm not a psychopath (...as far as I can tell), but I can think similarly to one when sober. For me, LSD can intensify that way of thinking. It can intensify everything, to be fair, but the way you think while on it can be... I guess "conducive to psychopathy"? If a psychopath is missing emotion/conscience and is given LSD, then they can end up with far more ways to manipulate their own thoughts in a way that supports their psychopathy, if that makes any sense.
k__ 3y ago
Maybe, it's like with programming. You can code a game, a database, an OS, a framework, a LLM etc. with one tool.
basil-rash 3y ago
[dead]

gavinray 3y ago

I had a similar phase myself. Though I still genuinely believe that every person should have a psychedelic experience at least once in their lifetime, as well as a talk-session with close friends while on MDMA. These two things radically shifted my life perspective and resolved a lot of inner issues, both after just a single time. Particularly the psychedelic experience is great for sparking realizations that things like hate, xenophobia, racism, etc. are all so absurd and non-productive.

basil-rash 3y ago
Were you racist, xenophobic, and hateful before? If not, your realizations about their productivity aren’t particularly relevant.
- fasterik 3y ago
  I don't think that's true. Even if someone doesn't explicitly hold those views, one can still be complacent, ignorant, or subtly enabling of them. Seeing things from a different perspective can provide insight into how relevant certain ideas are to the larger picture of humanity.
  - basil-rash 3y ago
    You’re saying the mindset one would have going into it is one of “I’m not personally hateful, xenophobic, or racist, but I can see how those are all logical and productive things to be”? I don’t believe that mindset exists.
    - AndrewKemendo 3y ago
      I think that’s exactly the mindset of most people because they don’t think they’re being racist, xenophobic, etc. If someone were to grow up in an economy built on coal mining with 13 year old miners, and you’re really effective at organizing 13 year old coal miners, then you’re gonna be very productive. Even though everything that you’re doing is existentially bad for everybody, they are all ignorant of it’s harms. So even if temporally coal mining with miners might be the only thing that anyone is aware of to do that is “productive.” You can make no “mistakes” and still lose just from ignorance

jseliger 3y ago

I don't think psychedelics are a panacea but they'll likely help the world move in a positive direction: https://jakeseliger.com/2023/09/25/strange-trip-psychedelics-and-confronting-the-fear-of-death https://jakeseliger.com/2023/09/25/strange-trip-psychedelics.... MDMA may also be the only, or among the few, things that really work in and for couples therapy (it's also not a panacea). Banning it is a travesty. There's an interesting alternative world chronicled in part by Michael Pollan in How to Change Your Mind, and by others, in which psychedelics are integrated into therapy, psychiatry, and other forms of medicine and improvement.

cubefox 3y ago
Unlike LSD or psilocybin, MDMA causes addiction, so there is some ground for a ban.
- LoganDark 3y ago
  The effects of LSD and psilocybin can still sometimes result in some degree of psychological addiction, just not physical dependence. MDMA can cause permanent tolerance and brain damage, and even though there has been plenty of research and testing by harm-reduction communities (like Bluelight), it's still not fully understood how this works or how to guarantee the substance's safety. This is probably why it should stay banned, at least for now. LSD and psilocybin are much safer, in my opinion. I would probably say LSD is the safest, since high doses of psilocybin can render me unconscious, but that could just be me.
  - amanaplanacanal 3y ago
    I'm not sure what good comes from "banning". The people who want to do it are going to do it anyway, but now you have a lot of folks taking unknown substances at unknown doses, and sometimes getting arrested and ending up with a record. Bad all around.
    - LoganDark 3y ago
      Yes, I share this sentiment: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38992990 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38992990 Simply unbanning MDMA with no further action though wouldn't be very productive right now when it still is quite unknown. I hope more research and clinical trials can be done in the future, with all sorts of things and not just MDMA.

photochemsyn 3y ago

Set and setting are critical factors in the outcome of any use of psychedelics, particularly for naive users unfamiliar with the effects. Practically speaking, this means LSD could plausibly be used in both cult brainwashing and cult deprogramming activities. That's why the CIA thought it could be used as a mind control / interrogation tool in the early 1950s (e.g. MKULTRA), while others adopted it as a liberating creative tool for artists (indeed, I once met a classically trained flutist who reported that they found it impossible to improvise over a jazz chord progression until they tried LSD). Personally I think a great many of the problem outcomes with psychedelics is related to consumerism and the desire for quick fixes. A society blanketed with pharmaceutical advertising and indoctrinated with the notion that pills fix health problems will tend to generate individuals who think taking some drug will 'fix' them. A typical outcome for such people is that they try some psychedelic, have a great time, and then run back to the well for another taste, and then have a horrible grim experience, reliving some past personal trauma or consumed with morbid thoughts of death and darkness, etc. - the so-called 'bad trip'. Let alone people who take so much they completely dissociate with sensory reality, a very dangerous situation as they may fall off cliffs, walk into traffic, etc. More often than not, people indoctrinated into consumerist drug use will instead turn to alcohol, opiates, cocaine, amphetamines, benzos, etc. - all drugs with fairly predictable feel-good effects, a variety of negative health effects, and high addiction potential - but not much risk of a 'bad trip'. In contrast, psychedelics have potential for combatting addiction to such drugs because they lead to introspection, self-reflection, and the realization that the short-term feel-good effects of addictive drugs are not worth the long-term consequences - the degradation of ones' mental and physical capabilities, degraded social relationships, loss of emotional control and so on.