7 ms·

This is the effect "digital nomads" and other affluent gentrifiers have on a run down economy coupled with lack of political oversight and prioritisation of sho

This is the effect "digital nomads" and other affluent gentrifiers have on a run down economy coupled with lack of political oversight and prioritisation of short term goals over long term ones. This is the same effect "golden visa" programs have, which flood the real estate markets with affluent people seeking a Schengen visa. This is corruption.

mderazon 3y ago
I think the mass exodus happened before the digital nomad trend. Specifically after the 2008 crisis. At least that's what I hear from Portuguese people
anonzzzies 3y ago
Typical PT populist reaction. It's not very hard to debunk, but this sentiment is very strong in some crowds in Lisboa & Porto. The foreigners, the nomads, usually well off people and golden visa people are what keeps the doors open on a lot of places that would simply disappear. I lived in some area where the people complained about the noise and misery, so the city council/mayor had places close earlier, gave out less permits etc; 3 years later the locals complained that so many nice smalls bars & restaurants & coffee shops disappeared and that there are only a few chains left. THEY weren't spending their days in these places; THEY weren't spending $100-200/day on food & drink; the nomads / tourists / expats were, so these places all closed. There is a lot wrong with this place (and every place I have lived by the way; nothing is perfect obviously), but getting rich folks in is not it. In my bar the American immigrants, who are currently the affluent gentrifiers here, spend vast amounts every day on food & drink, 365 days of the year, vs locals who have 1 coffee, if that, per week. I guess you know what's wrong when you lose it.
- piloto_ciego 3y ago
  Man, I need to talk to you! Lol My wife and I have been thinking about trying to leave America for the last few years but it’s objectively difficult to find a place that’s conducive to moving. How do most people you interact with do it? Also, why are you on HackerNews of all places?
  - kraftverk_ 3y ago
    Philippines is a place to consider if you are an American also. Very good for expats or digital nomads. Speaking from experience
    - robocat 3y ago
      Are you taking about the Philippines being good to move to specifically for a couple? I'm not sure I would recommend it to single guys unless sex tourism is your thing. Although I suspect it is somewhat dependent on location. I went on a working holiday there (tourist visa - programming for my NZ company) as an ignorant guy for a month. It was hard to evade the sex workers approaching you. And I made an innocent mistake and booked a Best Western hotel when I arrived and the hotel happened to be in a dodgy sexwork area. Fascinating given I'm a bit naive, but I wouldn't recommend it except for the midget boxers. Later I met an Australian guy at a bar and he couldn't stop raving about how good a time he had at one of the towns near the American base. I really enjoyed the Philippines and the people, but the sex tourism wasn't appealing to me.
  - jIyajbe 3y ago
    Different poster here. My wife and I retired to Portugal (near Lisbon) about two years ago. I guess we're two of the "affluent gentrifiers". :-) In contrast, we met a 20-something U.S. couple in our language class, who moved here and are working. We all came here on the D7 visa program, not the Golden Visa. I'd be happy to give you some insights, but I'm not sure what you mean by "conducive to moving"; what sort of issues or difficulties are you having?
    - piloto_ciego 3y ago
      Well, I’m starting to finals h a medical treatment tomorrow and I’m worried that that may disqualify me… some countries do, others do not. But yah, I think Portugal would be cool, I spent a bit of time in Galicia this summer and in 2018 and loved it, slightly south of there would be nice.
  - more_corn 3y ago
- i8comments 3y ago
  Different priorities. I value more peace and quiet than money in the economy. We dont need that kind of trouble. It's what makes Portugal a good place to live if you have money. It is like a poor Sweden. Not a poor NYC.
  - anonzzzies 3y ago
    If you want peace & quiet, then don't live in a city. A country needs money, it is what it is. It is not unique to Portugal in any way; people move to cities in droves; Amsterdam, Berlin, Melbourne (I lived in all 3) and then start complaining that they don't want noise but peace & quiet. Why, in the good lords name would you live in a city in that case? And in Germany and Portugal (ah and Sweden by the way) you can live nice and cheap in nature and have all the rest you want, why do you need to make it worse for people who don't enjoy that and live in a city for the excitement?
bwb 3y ago
I am curious, how many people were admitted to the golden visa program in the last 10 years? Does it really have a big impact?
- forinti 3y ago
  It's not only that, many Europeans have houses in Portugal. Some have summer houses, others retire to a better climate. Many well-off South Americans move or retire in Portugal too, because of climate and safety. I guess it adds up. I can see a similar pattern in Brazil: nicer seaside towns are getting more expensive as the population ages and retirees search for nicer places to live.
  - bwb 3y ago
    Gotcha, do you have any numbers to demonstrate that? For example, I did a quick google search, and between 2012 to 2023 12,497 golden visas were granted in Portugal. It is highly unlikely that 12,000 families coming to Portugal is causing this? Right? Or what am I missing here? It seems like a "blame the immigrant" type thing when in fact it is a failure to build enough housing like almost every country except Austria and Singapore. Do you know what the D7 visa numbers are? Brazilian immigrants are also coming on other types of visas. One of my wife's doctors moved from Brazil and is one of the best rehab doctors we've ever had.
    - FirmwareBurner 3y ago
      > build enough housing like almost every country except Austria and Singapore What makes you say Austria builds enough housing? Have you looked at buying property prices in Austria? Way too high for the average income.
      - bwb 3y ago
        Yep, they have done an amazing job: https://www.npr.org/local/305/2020/02/25/809315455/how-european-style-public-housing-could-help-solve-the-affordability-crisis https://www.npr.org/local/305/2020/02/25/809315455/how-europ... https://www.politico.eu/article/vienna-social-housing-architecture-austria-stigma/ https://www.politico.eu/article/vienna-social-housing-archit... https://www.nytimes.com/2023/05/23/magazine/vienna-social-housing.html https://www.nytimes.com/2023/05/23/magazine/vienna-social-ho...
fermisea 3y ago
Sorry but we all left during the 2008-2015 era. If anything the recent economic boom that Lx and Porto are seeing are making it appealing to come back. Having said that, I agree that tourism and the golden visa have completely screwed up the housing market and that needs some fixing. But the fix should come with salaries catching up with the housing bubble and Portugal finally being able to compete H2H with the rest of Europe in terms of attracting talent
- more_corn 3y ago
  I thought of a sort of interesting idea. In Mountain View the home of Google the city for some reason blocked housing construction for a decade. Meanwhile Google added 16k jobs to the city. The housing market in the whole area went batshit. What if the city had tried to permit 1 new housing start per new job? In Portugal what if every tech immigrant builds a house? Every unit of increased demand comes with a unit of increased supply. Theoretically that should flood the housing market with exactly as many new units as there are new immigrants. When we frame it as “driving up housing prices” we miss the simple idea of supply and demand. If supply always equals demand housing should stabilize.
  - somewhereoutth 3y ago
    Unfortunately the housing market is rather more complicated than simple supply and demand. Houses aren't lemons or bicycles. Where you sit on the 'available income for housing' curve determines the location and quality of the house/apartment/tent you live in. If lots of people with higher incomes appear, then you get moved down accordingly. If lots of tourists with higher propensity to spend on temporary accommodation appear, you get moved down accordingly. If lots of 'funny money' turns up looking for a place to be parked, you get moved down accordingly. Where people get distressed if is the location and quality that they can afford is not reasonable to them (either actually or by their perception). Building high quality well-located homes may help (if that is even possible), as everyone can 'move up' to the next rung on the quality/location ladder. However you may get induced demand, as the slight drop in prices brings more high earners/tourists/funny-money, in which case normal earners will not see the benefit. Alternatively, restricting high-earners/tourists/funny-money will move normal earners up the ladder, without having to lay a single brick. However there may be some economic downsides to that, depending on what exactly is proposed. For example banning AirBnB would likely be a large net positive to most European cities.

mderazon 3y ago

I think the mass exodus happened before the digital nomad trend. Specifically after the 2008 crisis. At least that's what I hear from Portuguese people

anonzzzies 3y ago

Typical PT populist reaction. It's not very hard to debunk, but this sentiment is very strong in some crowds in Lisboa & Porto. The foreigners, the nomads, usually well off people and golden visa people are what keeps the doors open on a lot of places that would simply disappear. I lived in some area where the people complained about the noise and misery, so the city council/mayor had places close earlier, gave out less permits etc; 3 years later the locals complained that so many nice smalls bars & restaurants & coffee shops disappeared and that there are only a few chains left. THEY weren't spending their days in these places; THEY weren't spending $100-200/day on food & drink; the nomads / tourists / expats were, so these places all closed. There is a lot wrong with this place (and every place I have lived by the way; nothing is perfect obviously), but getting rich folks in is not it. In my bar the American immigrants, who are currently the affluent gentrifiers here, spend vast amounts every day on food & drink, 365 days of the year, vs locals who have 1 coffee, if that, per week. I guess you know what's wrong when you lose it.

piloto_ciego 3y ago
Man, I need to talk to you! Lol My wife and I have been thinking about trying to leave America for the last few years but it’s objectively difficult to find a place that’s conducive to moving. How do most people you interact with do it? Also, why are you on HackerNews of all places?
- kraftverk_ 3y ago
  Philippines is a place to consider if you are an American also. Very good for expats or digital nomads. Speaking from experience
  - robocat 3y ago
    Are you taking about the Philippines being good to move to specifically for a couple? I'm not sure I would recommend it to single guys unless sex tourism is your thing. Although I suspect it is somewhat dependent on location. I went on a working holiday there (tourist visa - programming for my NZ company) as an ignorant guy for a month. It was hard to evade the sex workers approaching you. And I made an innocent mistake and booked a Best Western hotel when I arrived and the hotel happened to be in a dodgy sexwork area. Fascinating given I'm a bit naive, but I wouldn't recommend it except for the midget boxers. Later I met an Australian guy at a bar and he couldn't stop raving about how good a time he had at one of the towns near the American base. I really enjoyed the Philippines and the people, but the sex tourism wasn't appealing to me.
- jIyajbe 3y ago
  Different poster here. My wife and I retired to Portugal (near Lisbon) about two years ago. I guess we're two of the "affluent gentrifiers". :-) In contrast, we met a 20-something U.S. couple in our language class, who moved here and are working. We all came here on the D7 visa program, not the Golden Visa. I'd be happy to give you some insights, but I'm not sure what you mean by "conducive to moving"; what sort of issues or difficulties are you having?
  - piloto_ciego 3y ago
    Well, I’m starting to finals h a medical treatment tomorrow and I’m worried that that may disqualify me… some countries do, others do not. But yah, I think Portugal would be cool, I spent a bit of time in Galicia this summer and in 2018 and loved it, slightly south of there would be nice.
- more_corn 3y ago
i8comments 3y ago
Different priorities. I value more peace and quiet than money in the economy. We dont need that kind of trouble. It's what makes Portugal a good place to live if you have money. It is like a poor Sweden. Not a poor NYC.
- anonzzzies 3y ago
  If you want peace & quiet, then don't live in a city. A country needs money, it is what it is. It is not unique to Portugal in any way; people move to cities in droves; Amsterdam, Berlin, Melbourne (I lived in all 3) and then start complaining that they don't want noise but peace & quiet. Why, in the good lords name would you live in a city in that case? And in Germany and Portugal (ah and Sweden by the way) you can live nice and cheap in nature and have all the rest you want, why do you need to make it worse for people who don't enjoy that and live in a city for the excitement?

bwb 3y ago

I am curious, how many people were admitted to the golden visa program in the last 10 years? Does it really have a big impact?

forinti 3y ago
It's not only that, many Europeans have houses in Portugal. Some have summer houses, others retire to a better climate. Many well-off South Americans move or retire in Portugal too, because of climate and safety. I guess it adds up. I can see a similar pattern in Brazil: nicer seaside towns are getting more expensive as the population ages and retirees search for nicer places to live.
- bwb 3y ago
  Gotcha, do you have any numbers to demonstrate that? For example, I did a quick google search, and between 2012 to 2023 12,497 golden visas were granted in Portugal. It is highly unlikely that 12,000 families coming to Portugal is causing this? Right? Or what am I missing here? It seems like a "blame the immigrant" type thing when in fact it is a failure to build enough housing like almost every country except Austria and Singapore. Do you know what the D7 visa numbers are? Brazilian immigrants are also coming on other types of visas. One of my wife's doctors moved from Brazil and is one of the best rehab doctors we've ever had.
  - FirmwareBurner 3y ago
    > build enough housing like almost every country except Austria and Singapore What makes you say Austria builds enough housing? Have you looked at buying property prices in Austria? Way too high for the average income.
    - bwb 3y ago
      Yep, they have done an amazing job: https://www.npr.org/local/305/2020/02/25/809315455/how-european-style-public-housing-could-help-solve-the-affordability-crisis https://www.npr.org/local/305/2020/02/25/809315455/how-europ... https://www.politico.eu/article/vienna-social-housing-architecture-austria-stigma/ https://www.politico.eu/article/vienna-social-housing-archit... https://www.nytimes.com/2023/05/23/magazine/vienna-social-housing.html https://www.nytimes.com/2023/05/23/magazine/vienna-social-ho...

fermisea 3y ago

Sorry but we all left during the 2008-2015 era. If anything the recent economic boom that Lx and Porto are seeing are making it appealing to come back. Having said that, I agree that tourism and the golden visa have completely screwed up the housing market and that needs some fixing. But the fix should come with salaries catching up with the housing bubble and Portugal finally being able to compete H2H with the rest of Europe in terms of attracting talent

more_corn 3y ago
I thought of a sort of interesting idea. In Mountain View the home of Google the city for some reason blocked housing construction for a decade. Meanwhile Google added 16k jobs to the city. The housing market in the whole area went batshit. What if the city had tried to permit 1 new housing start per new job? In Portugal what if every tech immigrant builds a house? Every unit of increased demand comes with a unit of increased supply. Theoretically that should flood the housing market with exactly as many new units as there are new immigrants. When we frame it as “driving up housing prices” we miss the simple idea of supply and demand. If supply always equals demand housing should stabilize.
- somewhereoutth 3y ago
  Unfortunately the housing market is rather more complicated than simple supply and demand. Houses aren't lemons or bicycles. Where you sit on the 'available income for housing' curve determines the location and quality of the house/apartment/tent you live in. If lots of people with higher incomes appear, then you get moved down accordingly. If lots of tourists with higher propensity to spend on temporary accommodation appear, you get moved down accordingly. If lots of 'funny money' turns up looking for a place to be parked, you get moved down accordingly. Where people get distressed if is the location and quality that they can afford is not reasonable to them (either actually or by their perception). Building high quality well-located homes may help (if that is even possible), as everyone can 'move up' to the next rung on the quality/location ladder. However you may get induced demand, as the slight drop in prices brings more high earners/tourists/funny-money, in which case normal earners will not see the benefit. Alternatively, restricting high-earners/tourists/funny-money will move normal earners up the ladder, without having to lay a single brick. However there may be some economic downsides to that, depending on what exactly is proposed. For example banning AirBnB would likely be a large net positive to most European cities.