5 ms·

Do they have humans test cars before they produce them or what?

46 points by Ilasky 3y ago

yuppie_scum 3y ago
Best not to judge all cars by EVs.. for some reason most manufacturers have decided to discard 100 years of ergonomics learnings and start anew for no reason (beyond meager aerdynamics gains)
- janice1999 3y ago
  The trend of removing buttons and switches in favour of touchscreens, which have no feedback, must be one of the worst recent developments. I think it's mainly for 2 reasons - cost saving by removing physical switches which also speeds up manufacture and secondly just copying Tesla.
kasey_junk 3y ago
Not mentioned in this but what drives me the most crazy are climate controls. These are literally safety devices for defogging windows. In several cars I’ve driven they are hidden behind touch screen entertainment systems. Madness. In my own car there is a physical rocker to change the temperature but a touch screen to change the fan speed. Guess what I never want to change and what I need to change all the time? That car allows me to configure special start up messages for my birthday and wedding anniversary but I can’t reprogram what the rockers do.
- genman 3y ago
  The idiots who designed my car put the air circulation button behind 3(!) clicks on the touch screen.
  - genman 3y ago
    Actually, it needs 4 clicks as one additional click is needed to return to the previous screen (like navigation or media). This means that in total 8 clicks are necessary to turn on and off air circulation. The areas to click are not in the same section of the screen, so in total 4 different locations of the screen must be clicked. I find that there should be a criminal level of responsibility for making user interface like this in a vehicle.
jareklupinski 3y ago
forced dogfooding is unethical, but I wonder if every company marks up their cars 1% to offset a 50% internal employee discount, would that ultimately lead to a higher quality car?
- janice1999 3y ago
  It's my understanding that most people at Microsoft run frequently updated pre-release builds of Office for example. Having a VP call you to say that spellcheck got broken in the latest release is a great way to motivate fixing issues or preventing them in the first place.
  - chrisandchris 3y ago
    So at least one VP at Microsoft likes playing Candy Crush Saga all day while browsing LinkedIn? Or how gets this stuff forced onto your machine at every couple of boot cycles?
- geon 3y ago
  Why would that be unethical?
  - jareklupinski 3y ago
    i saw it at a previous job: some people that are genuinely good at solving specific technical problems aren't the target audience for every single app that may suffer backend latency issues that doesn't mean someone shouldn't test releases internally before it goes out the door, but it also showed me how users that are forced to use a platform can actually be a detriment if they're not in the cohort you are building for in the first place
    - cwmma 3y ago
      How is that unethical though, seems like it's just not useful
AlotOfReading 3y ago
The author has some points that could be improved. Things like the "accelerator braking" (regenerative braking) exist because they're some of the most important efficiency gains EVs can implement. Yes, it's different behavior than gas vehicles, but it's not a bad thing if the regeneration curve is good. Having been involved with auto production, I have a bit more insight into how the sausage is made. People do test these things before they're on the road, quite a lot of people in fact. Many of these issues do come up in testing, but for various reasons aren't addressed or the relevant teams that could change them are never even informed. With something like the handle design, the direction is likely coming from product design, who you don't want to fight with as an engineer unless they're asking for something especially stupid. One of my projects involved a camera and product had unnecessarily chosen to mount it facing upwards towards the sun. This was pointed out when engineers saw the first prototypes and kept being pointed out as an issue throughout implementation. The design got to mass production without changing the angle. Guess who got the panicked call from product when field testing discovered the camera was unusable at certain times of day? They were informed of root cause, the software knobs we built to mitigate the issue when it arose and I even offered to help them with field testing the fixes. No response.
- Valgrim 3y ago
  It would seem more logical to me if the regenerative braking was tied to a physical user input. Like... the brake pedal from 0 to 30% could be regenerative, and beyond that engage the brake discs. Or it could be tied to the shift stick, on a L-D position, acting like a low gear on a manual car.
  - Rebelgecko 3y ago
    Yeah, that's how my car does it (unless you "shift" into coasting with the paddle shifters. It does feel a bit clunky when you change between regen levels since the throttle is mapped differently
  - dcan 3y ago
    I've only familiar with the Hyundai Ioniq and the Chevy Bolt, but both those cars can be configured for that - the Chevy Bolt you only have to ensure it is not in one-pedal driving, which is just a button near the shifter, and the Hyundai Ioniq you just have to set the regen to zero. It's a failure of the rental place that these electric vehicles are not set up in such a way to match the mental model of a usual driver The Chevy Bolt has it's brake lights come on automatically regardless of what is causing the deceleration, and I believe Hyundai is coming out with an OTA fix for that as well. When you drive the electric car every day, it's nice using the one-pedal mode... Except it has taught me a large flaw in that my instant braking reaction is to depress the regen paddle, which doesn't work (only 10kW of effort) when the car batteries are well below -20 C, causing me to panic and brake too hard using the traditional hydraulic brakes.
jiggawatts 3y ago
Speaking of not testing cars for human compatibility: I went to buy a Toyota Camry a few years ago, and most of the models they had available for sale in Australia had a sunroof. The sunroof mechanism was so thick that even with the driver's seat at the lowest position, I could not sit in the car without my head touching the ceiling. I'm not that tall! Of the entire line of Camry vehicles for sale, only the lowest-tier model had no sunroof. So you either got that one, or learned to drive with your head sideways.
mint2 3y ago
I came to read some feel good confirmation bias aka their complaints on lack of buttons for things like defroster and fan speed. I was horribly let down. Have they never driven a ford edge?! Anyway why does turning on defroster in most cars turn all the fans to full blast immediately. On normal cars I’m mildly annoyed but it’s simple to turn the fan knob with muscle memory. On the ford edge to turn it off full blast requires pressing a tiny circle on the touch screen to bring up a slider and then push the correct space on the slider, no haptic feedback is possible. it requires staring at the console and ignoring the road.
- cyberge99 3y ago
  Presumably because if you need to defrost the windscreen or windows you need it done immediately as it’s a visibility hazzard.
codeulike 3y ago
Do they have humans test cars? I guess they assume that the human will be spending more than a handful of hours with the car and will be able to read the quick start guide etc. I don't think they optimise for renters. He didn't like the default regenerative braking on the Kia. Fair enough. I tried looking through the settings but couldn't for the life of me find the setting to turn this off The Kia would have paddles on the left and right of the steering wheel for adjusting the regen. Kindof behind all the usual stalks, two little paddles. This would be in the quick start guide that is either the first chapter of the manual or a little book that goes with the manual. THERE'S NO BRAKE LIGHT THAT COMES ON. Like, what? On Kias, the brake lights usually do come on during regenerative braking, although it does depend on how much braking is occuring. If the car is only slowing down a little, the lights might not come on.
caterama 3y ago
Having driven lots of different cars myself, I understand the frustration. Cars are inconsistent -- BUT! One thing the author misses is that a person typically drives one or two cars and becomes intimately familiar with their operation. The first time you open a new door handle it can be awkward/unfamiliar/surprising. You might have to look up how to open the trunk, fuel door, or charging port the first time. Perhaps how to turn on the rear window wiper, four wheel drive, cruise control, or fold down the rear seats, and other specialized features. Point is -- normal car drivers figure these things out once and it's not really an issue.
rasz 3y ago
Technology Connections covered stupid no brake light when Regen braking and one-pedal driving "Electric cars prove we need to rethink brake lights" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U0YW7x9U5TQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U0YW7x9U5TQ
rfwhyte 3y ago
Automakers haven't cared about the people who actually drive their cars for a decade or more unless you're in the ultra-premium segment where they make the fattest margins. They keep shoving shit we don't want down our throats because it makes them more profit and they'll keep doing it as long as we keep buying their increasingly enshitified products. Automakers could sell millions upon millions of barebones, basic, user-repairable, high MPG cars for under $30K USD if they bothered to listen to what regular folks actually want, instead they almost exclusively now make and sell $60K+ cars full of touch screens, pointless features and subscription services because they, like almost every other company on earth has decided they'd rather make $25K in profit per car selling a heck of a lot fewer $100K cars than make $5K in profit per car selling a heck of a lot more $30K cars.

46 points by Ilasky 3y ago

Best not to judge all cars by EVs.. for some reason most manufacturers have decided to discard 100 years of ergonomics learnings and start anew for no reason (beyond meager aerdynamics gains)

janice1999 3y ago
The trend of removing buttons and switches in favour of touchscreens, which have no feedback, must be one of the worst recent developments. I think it's mainly for 2 reasons - cost saving by removing physical switches which also speeds up manufacture and secondly just copying Tesla.

kasey_junk 3y ago

Not mentioned in this but what drives me the most crazy are climate controls. These are literally safety devices for defogging windows. In several cars I’ve driven they are hidden behind touch screen entertainment systems. Madness. In my own car there is a physical rocker to change the temperature but a touch screen to change the fan speed. Guess what I never want to change and what I need to change all the time? That car allows me to configure special start up messages for my birthday and wedding anniversary but I can’t reprogram what the rockers do.

genman 3y ago
The idiots who designed my car put the air circulation button behind 3(!) clicks on the touch screen.
- genman 3y ago
  Actually, it needs 4 clicks as one additional click is needed to return to the previous screen (like navigation or media). This means that in total 8 clicks are necessary to turn on and off air circulation. The areas to click are not in the same section of the screen, so in total 4 different locations of the screen must be clicked. I find that there should be a criminal level of responsibility for making user interface like this in a vehicle.

jareklupinski 3y ago

forced dogfooding is unethical, but I wonder if every company marks up their cars 1% to offset a 50% internal employee discount, would that ultimately lead to a higher quality car?

janice1999 3y ago
It's my understanding that most people at Microsoft run frequently updated pre-release builds of Office for example. Having a VP call you to say that spellcheck got broken in the latest release is a great way to motivate fixing issues or preventing them in the first place.
- chrisandchris 3y ago
  So at least one VP at Microsoft likes playing Candy Crush Saga all day while browsing LinkedIn? Or how gets this stuff forced onto your machine at every couple of boot cycles?
geon 3y ago
Why would that be unethical?
- jareklupinski 3y ago
  i saw it at a previous job: some people that are genuinely good at solving specific technical problems aren't the target audience for every single app that may suffer backend latency issues that doesn't mean someone shouldn't test releases internally before it goes out the door, but it also showed me how users that are forced to use a platform can actually be a detriment if they're not in the cohort you are building for in the first place
  - cwmma 3y ago
    How is that unethical though, seems like it's just not useful

AlotOfReading 3y ago

The author has some points that could be improved. Things like the "accelerator braking" (regenerative braking) exist because they're some of the most important efficiency gains EVs can implement. Yes, it's different behavior than gas vehicles, but it's not a bad thing if the regeneration curve is good. Having been involved with auto production, I have a bit more insight into how the sausage is made. People do test these things before they're on the road, quite a lot of people in fact. Many of these issues do come up in testing, but for various reasons aren't addressed or the relevant teams that could change them are never even informed. With something like the handle design, the direction is likely coming from product design, who you don't want to fight with as an engineer unless they're asking for something especially stupid. One of my projects involved a camera and product had unnecessarily chosen to mount it facing upwards towards the sun. This was pointed out when engineers saw the first prototypes and kept being pointed out as an issue throughout implementation. The design got to mass production without changing the angle. Guess who got the panicked call from product when field testing discovered the camera was unusable at certain times of day? They were informed of root cause, the software knobs we built to mitigate the issue when it arose and I even offered to help them with field testing the fixes. No response.

Valgrim 3y ago
It would seem more logical to me if the regenerative braking was tied to a physical user input. Like... the brake pedal from 0 to 30% could be regenerative, and beyond that engage the brake discs. Or it could be tied to the shift stick, on a L-D position, acting like a low gear on a manual car.
- Rebelgecko 3y ago
  Yeah, that's how my car does it (unless you "shift" into coasting with the paddle shifters. It does feel a bit clunky when you change between regen levels since the throttle is mapped differently
- dcan 3y ago
  I've only familiar with the Hyundai Ioniq and the Chevy Bolt, but both those cars can be configured for that - the Chevy Bolt you only have to ensure it is not in one-pedal driving, which is just a button near the shifter, and the Hyundai Ioniq you just have to set the regen to zero. It's a failure of the rental place that these electric vehicles are not set up in such a way to match the mental model of a usual driver The Chevy Bolt has it's brake lights come on automatically regardless of what is causing the deceleration, and I believe Hyundai is coming out with an OTA fix for that as well. When you drive the electric car every day, it's nice using the one-pedal mode... Except it has taught me a large flaw in that my instant braking reaction is to depress the regen paddle, which doesn't work (only 10kW of effort) when the car batteries are well below -20 C, causing me to panic and brake too hard using the traditional hydraulic brakes.

jiggawatts 3y ago

Speaking of not testing cars for human compatibility: I went to buy a Toyota Camry a few years ago, and most of the models they had available for sale in Australia had a sunroof. The sunroof mechanism was so thick that even with the driver's seat at the lowest position, I could not sit in the car without my head touching the ceiling. I'm not that tall! Of the entire line of Camry vehicles for sale, only the lowest-tier model had no sunroof. So you either got that one, or learned to drive with your head sideways.

mint2 3y ago

I came to read some feel good confirmation bias aka their complaints on lack of buttons for things like defroster and fan speed. I was horribly let down. Have they never driven a ford edge?! Anyway why does turning on defroster in most cars turn all the fans to full blast immediately. On normal cars I’m mildly annoyed but it’s simple to turn the fan knob with muscle memory. On the ford edge to turn it off full blast requires pressing a tiny circle on the touch screen to bring up a slider and then push the correct space on the slider, no haptic feedback is possible. it requires staring at the console and ignoring the road.

cyberge99 3y ago
Presumably because if you need to defrost the windscreen or windows you need it done immediately as it’s a visibility hazzard.

codeulike 3y ago

Do they have humans test cars? I guess they assume that the human will be spending more than a handful of hours with the car and will be able to read the quick start guide etc. I don't think they optimise for renters. He didn't like the default regenerative braking on the Kia. Fair enough. I tried looking through the settings but couldn't for the life of me find the setting to turn this off The Kia would have paddles on the left and right of the steering wheel for adjusting the regen. Kindof behind all the usual stalks, two little paddles. This would be in the quick start guide that is either the first chapter of the manual or a little book that goes with the manual. THERE'S NO BRAKE LIGHT THAT COMES ON. Like, what? On Kias, the brake lights usually do come on during regenerative braking, although it does depend on how much braking is occuring. If the car is only slowing down a little, the lights might not come on.

caterama 3y ago

Having driven lots of different cars myself, I understand the frustration. Cars are inconsistent -- BUT! One thing the author misses is that a person typically drives one or two cars and becomes intimately familiar with their operation. The first time you open a new door handle it can be awkward/unfamiliar/surprising. You might have to look up how to open the trunk, fuel door, or charging port the first time. Perhaps how to turn on the rear window wiper, four wheel drive, cruise control, or fold down the rear seats, and other specialized features. Point is -- normal car drivers figure these things out once and it's not really an issue.

rasz 3y ago

Technology Connections covered stupid no brake light when Regen braking and one-pedal driving "Electric cars prove we need to rethink brake lights" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U0YW7x9U5TQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U0YW7x9U5TQ

rfwhyte 3y ago

Automakers haven't cared about the people who actually drive their cars for a decade or more unless you're in the ultra-premium segment where they make the fattest margins. They keep shoving shit we don't want down our throats because it makes them more profit and they'll keep doing it as long as we keep buying their increasingly enshitified products. Automakers could sell millions upon millions of barebones, basic, user-repairable, high MPG cars for under $30K USD if they bothered to listen to what regular folks actually want, instead they almost exclusively now make and sell $60K+ cars full of touch screens, pointless features and subscription services because they, like almost every other company on earth has decided they'd rather make $25K in profit per car selling a heck of a lot fewer $100K cars than make $5K in profit per car selling a heck of a lot more $30K cars.