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I disagree that Apple's capability is similar. The feature only allows texting emergency services, requires holding the phone in a specific orientation to send

I disagree that Apple's capability is similar. The feature only allows texting emergency services, requires holding the phone in a specific orientation to send or receive, is separate from your carrier service (only two years are free with purchase), and is exceedingly slow. SpaceX's service will allow texting and receiving texts from anyone using your carrier number, plans to support third party messaging apps such as WhatsApp, is much faster, and does not require holding the phone in any particular orientation to receive messages. It can supposedly work from a pocket or inside a car.

forgot-im-old 3y ago
>> It can supposedly work from a pocket or inside a car. False
lxgr 3y ago
Elon has mentioned a speed of about 7 Mbit/s for an entire cell (which in these systems usually means a circle with a radius of a few hundred kilometers). That's within an order of magnitude of current LEO systems. The innovation here is that it'll supposedly work with unmodified off-the-shelf phones. (Personally I'm assuming that at least messaging software will have to be modified in order to use the available bandwidth efficiently.)
- modeless 3y ago
  Apple hasn't disclosed the bitrate of their Emergency SOS feature but from FCC filings I believe it uses Globalstar's L-Band at 1610 Mhz for uplink, and I believe the bitrate Globalstar supports in that channel is 9.6 kbps. So almost three orders of magnitude less than the SpaceX system, not one. In addition I believe that the typical achieved bitrate is even less than that in Apple's case due to the lack of a large dedicated antenna. In demos it typically takes many seconds up to several minutes to send a single message, during which time you are directed to continuously point the phone at the satellite for best reception.
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
  - lxgr 3y ago
    The 7 Mbit/s are for an entire cell, i.e. all devices simultaneously transmitting in it, not per device. Iridium (a comparable system) used to support about 10 Mbit/s per satellite in its first satellite generation, which had 48 spot beams each. The second generation supports about a megabit per modem, but these have larger antennas than a regular satphone. > Apple doesn't disclose the bitrate of their Emergency SOS feature but it uses Globalstar's L-Band for uplink and I believe the bitrate of that channel is 9.6 kbps. I'm almost certain Apple doesn't even use the full 9.6 kbit/s modulation scheme for their emergency SOS feature: As you mention, it's way too slow for that (having used it myself – even just transmitting my location takes a couple of seconds, and that's a message of only a few bytes). Globalstar satellites are bent-pipe relays, so Apple could be using whatever custom modulation and coding scheme they need to stay within the constraints of their power and SNR envelope. With the iPhone's built-in antenna and transmit power (around 2 watts or so, if I remember correctly), I'd be surprised if it was more than a couple hundred bits per second. Regular (i.e. non-smartphone) satellite messengers are much faster than that and only take a few seconds to transmit and receive messages of hundreds of bytes.
    - Scoundreller 3y ago
      I hope one day Apple can jam some more features in the downstream. Would be cool to broadcast news or weather updates just by pointing your phone at the sky for a few moments. Satellite should be able to blast the signal. Downsides: no real "cell" infra for Globalstar, and it doesn't work far outside of landmasses.
      - lxgr 3y ago
        I'm fairly certain Apple has bigger plans for Globalstar than "only" emergency SOS. They've spent considerable resources securing 85% of the total capacity already! Regarding coverage, Apple has also already invested considerably, e.g. in ground station expansions in Hawaii and elsewhere. According to Globalstar's coverage map (likely outdated/non-Apple, since Hawaii is not shown as covered yet), most of the Atlantic Ocean is already covered as well: https://www.globalstar.com/en-us/coverage-maps https://www.globalstar.com/en-us/coverage-maps
- Podgajski 3y ago
  From what I understand the cell is about 13 km².
  - forgot-im-old 3y ago
    13km diameter.. which is about 133km².
    - Podgajski 3y ago
      Ah, yes, thanks.
    - numpad0 3y ago
      LTE user count limits per cell is like 500 to 1.5k, and 133km^2 is on par with Liechtenstein(160km^2, 40k population), so like, 7Mbps shared among top 1 - 3.75% of Liechtensteinians? That sounds prestigious...
      - forgot-im-old 3y ago
        Anywhere with Liechtenstein's population density would already have cell service, so this wouldn't get used there anyway. This is for the 0.1-0.2% of the US population that doesn't have cell service at all (still prestigious in their own way, but also likely low income).
        herewulf 3y ago
        There are lots of places in the US and Canada (to name a few) where people regularly go for outdoor recreation, or what have you, and there's no cell service anywhere near. This is very applicable to that case, not just where people actually live.
      - modeless 3y ago
        Densely populated areas and even relatively rural areas will have regular cell towers. This is for the few people out of range at any given time, and also outdoors. 1-3.75% sounds plausible I guess? And there are plenty of much less populated areas than Lichtenstein.
- Aloha 3y ago
  I think that probably works out to a single LTE carrier per spot, which is kinda brilliant, because then you only need to allocate a tiny amount of spectrum for this.
Reason077 3y ago
… and the SpaceX service works with any ordinary modern phone. Not just the latest iPhone with special hardware.
- yreg 3y ago
  Well it requires a 5G phone. And Apple's service is not just the latest iPhones.
  - Reason077 3y ago
    Not 5G. The Starlink service uses 4G LTE. Will work with pretty much any phone made in the past decade or so.
- pests 3y ago
  It's not special hardware. They are just utilizing the underlying capabilities of their the Qualcomm broadband chip. Anyone else using the same chip can add satellite functionality too.
  - Reason077 3y ago
    It is definitely special hardware. Besides the Qualcomm chip, there’s a dedicated satellite antenna built in to supported iPhones. To add satellite functionality, other brands would also need to add satellite antennas to their phones. SpaceX service, on the other hand, works with pre-existing 4G/LTE phones of any brand, with no special hardware requirements.
cqqxo4zV46cp 3y ago
There’s more nuance to the pricing situation that I think is worth mentioning. Whilst Apple said that they’d charge for this, they IIRC never announced pricing, and offered the first year free. That first year has since lapsed and they’ve committed to keeping it free for another year. Given the negative PR that would come of, say, a death that could’ve been prevented had someone subscribed to Uncle Tim’s Apple Emergency Plus Prime, I have every expectation that Apple will continue to swallow the cost. Not to say that anything you said was wrong, and not to say that it’s not still a precarious situation. Just offering additional detail to those that haven’t watched this as closely.
- rrrrrrrrrrrryan 3y ago
  > the negative PR that would come of, say, a death that could’ve been prevented had someone subscribed It seems this could easily be avoided by selling 1 year subscriptions, available retroactively for a steep fee.
shaklee3 3y ago
And works on any phone and not just iPhone
WWLink 3y ago
-rolls eyes- damnit that gave me a headache. they almost fell out of my head.
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]

forgot-im-old 3y ago

>> It can supposedly work from a pocket or inside a car. False

lxgr 3y ago

Elon has mentioned a speed of about 7 Mbit/s for an entire cell (which in these systems usually means a circle with a radius of a few hundred kilometers). That's within an order of magnitude of current LEO systems. The innovation here is that it'll supposedly work with unmodified off-the-shelf phones. (Personally I'm assuming that at least messaging software will have to be modified in order to use the available bandwidth efficiently.)

modeless 3y ago
Apple hasn't disclosed the bitrate of their Emergency SOS feature but from FCC filings I believe it uses Globalstar's L-Band at 1610 Mhz for uplink, and I believe the bitrate Globalstar supports in that channel is 9.6 kbps. So almost three orders of magnitude less than the SpaceX system, not one. In addition I believe that the typical achieved bitrate is even less than that in Apple's case due to the lack of a large dedicated antenna. In demos it typically takes many seconds up to several minutes to send a single message, during which time you are directed to continuously point the phone at the satellite for best reception.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- lxgr 3y ago
  The 7 Mbit/s are for an entire cell, i.e. all devices simultaneously transmitting in it, not per device. Iridium (a comparable system) used to support about 10 Mbit/s per satellite in its first satellite generation, which had 48 spot beams each. The second generation supports about a megabit per modem, but these have larger antennas than a regular satphone. > Apple doesn't disclose the bitrate of their Emergency SOS feature but it uses Globalstar's L-Band for uplink and I believe the bitrate of that channel is 9.6 kbps. I'm almost certain Apple doesn't even use the full 9.6 kbit/s modulation scheme for their emergency SOS feature: As you mention, it's way too slow for that (having used it myself – even just transmitting my location takes a couple of seconds, and that's a message of only a few bytes). Globalstar satellites are bent-pipe relays, so Apple could be using whatever custom modulation and coding scheme they need to stay within the constraints of their power and SNR envelope. With the iPhone's built-in antenna and transmit power (around 2 watts or so, if I remember correctly), I'd be surprised if it was more than a couple hundred bits per second. Regular (i.e. non-smartphone) satellite messengers are much faster than that and only take a few seconds to transmit and receive messages of hundreds of bytes.
  - Scoundreller 3y ago
    I hope one day Apple can jam some more features in the downstream. Would be cool to broadcast news or weather updates just by pointing your phone at the sky for a few moments. Satellite should be able to blast the signal. Downsides: no real "cell" infra for Globalstar, and it doesn't work far outside of landmasses.
    - lxgr 3y ago
      I'm fairly certain Apple has bigger plans for Globalstar than "only" emergency SOS. They've spent considerable resources securing 85% of the total capacity already! Regarding coverage, Apple has also already invested considerably, e.g. in ground station expansions in Hawaii and elsewhere. According to Globalstar's coverage map (likely outdated/non-Apple, since Hawaii is not shown as covered yet), most of the Atlantic Ocean is already covered as well: https://www.globalstar.com/en-us/coverage-maps https://www.globalstar.com/en-us/coverage-maps
Podgajski 3y ago
From what I understand the cell is about 13 km².
- forgot-im-old 3y ago
  13km diameter.. which is about 133km².
  - Podgajski 3y ago
    Ah, yes, thanks.
  - numpad0 3y ago
    LTE user count limits per cell is like 500 to 1.5k, and 133km^2 is on par with Liechtenstein(160km^2, 40k population), so like, 7Mbps shared among top 1 - 3.75% of Liechtensteinians? That sounds prestigious...
    - forgot-im-old 3y ago
      Anywhere with Liechtenstein's population density would already have cell service, so this wouldn't get used there anyway. This is for the 0.1-0.2% of the US population that doesn't have cell service at all (still prestigious in their own way, but also likely low income).
      - herewulf 3y ago
        There are lots of places in the US and Canada (to name a few) where people regularly go for outdoor recreation, or what have you, and there's no cell service anywhere near. This is very applicable to that case, not just where people actually live.
    - modeless 3y ago
      Densely populated areas and even relatively rural areas will have regular cell towers. This is for the few people out of range at any given time, and also outdoors. 1-3.75% sounds plausible I guess? And there are plenty of much less populated areas than Lichtenstein.
Aloha 3y ago
I think that probably works out to a single LTE carrier per spot, which is kinda brilliant, because then you only need to allocate a tiny amount of spectrum for this.

Reason077 3y ago

… and the SpaceX service works with any ordinary modern phone. Not just the latest iPhone with special hardware.

yreg 3y ago
Well it requires a 5G phone. And Apple's service is not just the latest iPhones.
- Reason077 3y ago
  Not 5G. The Starlink service uses 4G LTE. Will work with pretty much any phone made in the past decade or so.
pests 3y ago
It's not special hardware. They are just utilizing the underlying capabilities of their the Qualcomm broadband chip. Anyone else using the same chip can add satellite functionality too.
- Reason077 3y ago
  It is definitely special hardware. Besides the Qualcomm chip, there’s a dedicated satellite antenna built in to supported iPhones. To add satellite functionality, other brands would also need to add satellite antennas to their phones. SpaceX service, on the other hand, works with pre-existing 4G/LTE phones of any brand, with no special hardware requirements.

cqqxo4zV46cp 3y ago

There’s more nuance to the pricing situation that I think is worth mentioning. Whilst Apple said that they’d charge for this, they IIRC never announced pricing, and offered the first year free. That first year has since lapsed and they’ve committed to keeping it free for another year. Given the negative PR that would come of, say, a death that could’ve been prevented had someone subscribed to Uncle Tim’s Apple Emergency Plus Prime, I have every expectation that Apple will continue to swallow the cost. Not to say that anything you said was wrong, and not to say that it’s not still a precarious situation. Just offering additional detail to those that haven’t watched this as closely.

rrrrrrrrrrrryan 3y ago
> the negative PR that would come of, say, a death that could’ve been prevented had someone subscribed It seems this could easily be avoided by selling 1 year subscriptions, available retroactively for a steep fee.

shaklee3 3y ago

And works on any phone and not just iPhone

WWLink 3y ago

-rolls eyes- damnit that gave me a headache. they almost fell out of my head.

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]