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I always assumed everyone assumed everything was learnable. Realizing this (i.e., that being everyone's default belief) might not be the case is kind of blowing

I always assumed everyone assumed everything was learnable. Realizing this (i.e., that being everyone's default belief) might not be the case is kind of blowing my mind a little right now.

jvanderbot 3y ago
You can learn anything you want, but really wanting is the hardest part.
- drakonka 3y ago
  Agreed, I've always believed you can learn anything you want. The realization I was talking about was the one where maybe that's not the default assumption for everyone.
  - coldtea 3y ago
    Of course it's not the default assumption.
    - rmwaite 3y ago
      Why “of course”? I too took a long time to discover this wasn’t the case. I don’t think it’s as obvious as your wording makes it sound.
      - coldtea 3y ago
        Surely you've heard countless "I just can't do math", "I can't draw to save my life", "I don't have talent for X", "Piano teacher tried but I just have no talent for it", "Wow, you must be very talented for doing Y", no?
- deegles 3y ago
  I think actually following through over time is the hard part. Wanting to do something is easy.
  - jvanderbot 3y ago
    Sustained motivation is just a matter of degree of want. If you want something enough you will do it. At least that's my premise.
    - marcosdumay 3y ago
      This is a wild oversimplification. And very dangerous if you try to apply to people in more complex situations.
      - drekipus 3y ago
        Dangerous?
        marcosdumay 3y ago
        Yes, dismissing mental and health problems can make people not seek treatment, further increase them, or at more extreme cases even physically hurt people. Dismissing social problems can have the equivalent of all those consequences, and even worse ones.
        nick__m 3y ago
        Where did he dismiss people problems ? If someone want to do something enough, he should be compelled to seek help to overcome his limitations. Comment like your encourages learned helplessness, which to me is a lot more dangerous than what he said !
        drekipus 3y ago
        Full agreeance. I grew up poor, had stints of homelessness, and all my friends/relatives came from the same background. Learned helplessness is one of, if not the biggest, issues facing socially disadvantaged people. Money, counselling, temporary housing - all of this is moot and useless if the person retains a poor mindset. Conversely, if there's a positive mindset, then they are most likely going to seek out those opportunities and use them to their advantage.
- kiba 3y ago
  There's all sort of obstacles to learning. It could be the price of the courses you want to take, the lack of motivation/willpower/discipline to follow through, poor learning skills, lack of equipment or materials.
- borroka 3y ago
  > You can learn anything you want Without any quantifier/qualifier, say that "you can learn anything you want" is meaningless. If you are not disabled (broadly speaking), you can learn to run, where running is a way of continuously moving your body in which for some time no foot is touching the ground (marching/walking = one foot is touching the ground always). But, can you learn to run the 100 m dash in under 12/13/14 seconds? Sure, anybody can learn to draw, where drawing means moving the ink from pen to paper, but can you draw something that is objectively good? And if yes, how long will it take for someone like me, who has close to no talent for it? And so on.
p1esk 3y ago
Everything is learnable but most things are not worth learning.
LargeWu 3y ago
Ask ten people if they can draw, and half will say "No, I'm not artistic" or "I'm not creative", as though it were an innate quality.
- drakonka 3y ago
  When I've heard that before I always just thought they meant they had no particular talent for it and weren't interested enough to learn. More a case of choosing to focus on things you feel more naturally inclined to, as opposed to thinking something is unlearnable for you.
  - drekipus 3y ago
    Some people really think it's totally outside of their capacity, even if they wanted to draw. Feeling like it's useless also hinders the desire to try, declining the interest in it anyway.. a little bit chicken&egg.
- kelseyfrog 3y ago
  Is there an alpha in domains that "require innate talent"?
ants_everywhere 3y ago
People used to think few things were learnable and you had to have innate talent to learn something. One of the few remaining holdouts of this idea is perfect pitch. Most people I've seen express an opinion don't believe it's learnable after some childhood cutoff period. I'm not sure how well researched it is, though.
- spease 3y ago
  There was a study where they found that taking valproate opened a critical period that helped people learn it. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3848041/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3848041/
  - ants_everywhere 3y ago
    Very cool, I wasn't aware of that study. Thanks!

I always assumed everyone assumed everything was learnable. Realizing this (i.e., that being everyone's default belief) might not be the case is kind of blowing my mind a little right now.

jvanderbot 3y ago

You can learn anything you want, but really wanting is the hardest part.

drakonka 3y ago
Agreed, I've always believed you can learn anything you want. The realization I was talking about was the one where maybe that's not the default assumption for everyone.
- coldtea 3y ago
  Of course it's not the default assumption.
  - rmwaite 3y ago
    Why “of course”? I too took a long time to discover this wasn’t the case. I don’t think it’s as obvious as your wording makes it sound.
    - coldtea 3y ago
      Surely you've heard countless "I just can't do math", "I can't draw to save my life", "I don't have talent for X", "Piano teacher tried but I just have no talent for it", "Wow, you must be very talented for doing Y", no?
deegles 3y ago
I think actually following through over time is the hard part. Wanting to do something is easy.
- jvanderbot 3y ago
  Sustained motivation is just a matter of degree of want. If you want something enough you will do it. At least that's my premise.
  - marcosdumay 3y ago
    This is a wild oversimplification. And very dangerous if you try to apply to people in more complex situations.
    - drekipus 3y ago
      Dangerous?
      - marcosdumay 3y ago
        Yes, dismissing mental and health problems can make people not seek treatment, further increase them, or at more extreme cases even physically hurt people. Dismissing social problems can have the equivalent of all those consequences, and even worse ones.
        nick__m 3y ago
        Where did he dismiss people problems ? If someone want to do something enough, he should be compelled to seek help to overcome his limitations. Comment like your encourages learned helplessness, which to me is a lot more dangerous than what he said !
        drekipus 3y ago
        Full agreeance. I grew up poor, had stints of homelessness, and all my friends/relatives came from the same background. Learned helplessness is one of, if not the biggest, issues facing socially disadvantaged people. Money, counselling, temporary housing - all of this is moot and useless if the person retains a poor mindset. Conversely, if there's a positive mindset, then they are most likely going to seek out those opportunities and use them to their advantage.
kiba 3y ago
There's all sort of obstacles to learning. It could be the price of the courses you want to take, the lack of motivation/willpower/discipline to follow through, poor learning skills, lack of equipment or materials.
borroka 3y ago
> You can learn anything you want Without any quantifier/qualifier, say that "you can learn anything you want" is meaningless. If you are not disabled (broadly speaking), you can learn to run, where running is a way of continuously moving your body in which for some time no foot is touching the ground (marching/walking = one foot is touching the ground always). But, can you learn to run the 100 m dash in under 12/13/14 seconds? Sure, anybody can learn to draw, where drawing means moving the ink from pen to paper, but can you draw something that is objectively good? And if yes, how long will it take for someone like me, who has close to no talent for it? And so on.

p1esk 3y ago

Everything is learnable but most things are not worth learning.

LargeWu 3y ago

Ask ten people if they can draw, and half will say "No, I'm not artistic" or "I'm not creative", as though it were an innate quality.

drakonka 3y ago
When I've heard that before I always just thought they meant they had no particular talent for it and weren't interested enough to learn. More a case of choosing to focus on things you feel more naturally inclined to, as opposed to thinking something is unlearnable for you.
- drekipus 3y ago
  Some people really think it's totally outside of their capacity, even if they wanted to draw. Feeling like it's useless also hinders the desire to try, declining the interest in it anyway.. a little bit chicken&egg.
kelseyfrog 3y ago
Is there an alpha in domains that "require innate talent"?

ants_everywhere 3y ago

People used to think few things were learnable and you had to have innate talent to learn something. One of the few remaining holdouts of this idea is perfect pitch. Most people I've seen express an opinion don't believe it's learnable after some childhood cutoff period. I'm not sure how well researched it is, though.

spease 3y ago
There was a study where they found that taking valproate opened a critical period that helped people learn it. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3848041/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3848041/
- ants_everywhere 3y ago
  Very cool, I wasn't aware of that study. Thanks!