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"Is it even possible to check everything" Yes. It is possible to check everything. We've been manufacturing now for centuries. There are absolutely technique

"Is it even possible to check everything" Yes. It is possible to check everything. We've been manufacturing now for centuries. There are absolutely techniques, methodologies, organizational structures, all to prevent this. That this is happening is purely cost cutting. Accountants balancing lives against pennies. Just like automakers would do calculations to determine the cost of installing seat belts against potential lawsuits. Nobody cares about lives, it was simply a calculation based on potential lawsuits. Notice, it is totally possible to check everything. There was never a problem with our ability to prevent deaths, it was just too expensive. Because lives are actually cheap. MOLOCH.

XorNot 3y ago
They're not balancing lives against pennies. They're just not thinking about it. That's the mistake you're making: you're implying a plan because a plan means there's control. But that's not how it works: someone said "hey it would be cheaper if we could just not do this" - someone probably said "well this double check is necessary because bad things could happen". They were dismissed with the twofer of "that check never finds any faults" or my personal favorite "that won't happen" (no justification given). No one in Boeing has a spreadsheet of expected aircraft crash rates versus dollars earned on manufacturing and turned the dial till they got a nice peak. They just plain didn't think about the potential consequences.
- orwin 3y ago
  Exactly. They probably don't balance anything. Industrial tools manufacturers have the same issues. Sometimes it ends in breaking that hurt both people and the tool, but sometimes it's even more dumb: 'hey, this part is under a lot of friction, has to be replaced after each maintenance cycle, let's buy almost the same at half the cost, the maintenance will be 20% cheaper'. How it end up: the tool require faster maintenance cycle, and in the end, without taking into account maintenance technicians salaries, it ends up 30% more expensive (which isn't an issue for new tools, but quite a big one for tools under initial maintenance contracts)
- FrustratedMonky 3y ago
  Right, you are correct. Corporations have adapted and don't make such blatant calculations anymore. With seat belts, or gas tanks, in 70's. There were actual actuaries that did the exact calculations, what would manufacturing cost, what percentage of accidents would result in lawsuits, what are estimated payouts. And they actually did the math to balance cost to produce to lives. But they got into a lot of trouble that they were doing those calculations. Now it is more subtle, everyone has budgets to hit, there are deadlines, production quotas. And with Just In Time Manufacturing, and local 'ownership'. Some Blackbelt consultant convinces the local managers to 'optimize'. And of course, they start cutting corners. No real calculation, just constant pressure to cut.
maxbond 3y ago
> MOLOCH Could you elaborate?
- ahartmetz 3y ago
  A an ancient god that eats humans, sometimes used as a metaphor for capitalism or other pitiless societal forces.
  - maxbond 3y ago
    Sorry, I could've been clearer, I understood the reference, I wanted to know what they meant by signing off like that. I took an inference that seemed unusual and perhaps mistaken, so I wanted clarification.
    - FrustratedMonky 3y ago
      In the Moloch essay, there are several examples of 'capitalism' or 'libertarianism' that make the point that there is such a constant drive to cut costs, that humans will destroy themselves. And this drive is "Moloch", we are it, and also subject to it. So to me Boeing is just another example in a long line of corporations just doing what corporations do, cut costs, no matter what the impact. It sounds too blatant, who would consciously want to kill people to save a few pennies. But what actually happens is just organizational, everyone has a budget to hit, there are layers and layers of middle managers that are getting squeezed, and they start cutting corners. No single corner seems that bad. But it is a constant slow progression towards disaster. A thousand cuts. Some 'common joe manager' that has a kid in collage, a mortgage, and his boss is breathing down his neck, so he cuts a corner. -- But the problem is, everyone has a boss, no one is free, the entire organization/system is the beast, but we also comprise the beast. https://slatestarcodex.com/2014/07/30/meditations-on-moloch/ https://slatestarcodex.com/2014/07/30/meditations-on-moloch/
      - maxbond 3y ago
        Thanks for clarifying, I had taken the wrong idea.

XorNot 3y ago

They're not balancing lives against pennies. They're just not thinking about it. That's the mistake you're making: you're implying a plan because a plan means there's control. But that's not how it works: someone said "hey it would be cheaper if we could just not do this" - someone probably said "well this double check is necessary because bad things could happen". They were dismissed with the twofer of "that check never finds any faults" or my personal favorite "that won't happen" (no justification given). No one in Boeing has a spreadsheet of expected aircraft crash rates versus dollars earned on manufacturing and turned the dial till they got a nice peak. They just plain didn't think about the potential consequences.

orwin 3y ago
Exactly. They probably don't balance anything. Industrial tools manufacturers have the same issues. Sometimes it ends in breaking that hurt both people and the tool, but sometimes it's even more dumb: 'hey, this part is under a lot of friction, has to be replaced after each maintenance cycle, let's buy almost the same at half the cost, the maintenance will be 20% cheaper'. How it end up: the tool require faster maintenance cycle, and in the end, without taking into account maintenance technicians salaries, it ends up 30% more expensive (which isn't an issue for new tools, but quite a big one for tools under initial maintenance contracts)
FrustratedMonky 3y ago
Right, you are correct. Corporations have adapted and don't make such blatant calculations anymore. With seat belts, or gas tanks, in 70's. There were actual actuaries that did the exact calculations, what would manufacturing cost, what percentage of accidents would result in lawsuits, what are estimated payouts. And they actually did the math to balance cost to produce to lives. But they got into a lot of trouble that they were doing those calculations. Now it is more subtle, everyone has budgets to hit, there are deadlines, production quotas. And with Just In Time Manufacturing, and local 'ownership'. Some Blackbelt consultant convinces the local managers to 'optimize'. And of course, they start cutting corners. No real calculation, just constant pressure to cut.

maxbond 3y ago

> MOLOCH Could you elaborate?

ahartmetz 3y ago
A an ancient god that eats humans, sometimes used as a metaphor for capitalism or other pitiless societal forces.
- maxbond 3y ago
  Sorry, I could've been clearer, I understood the reference, I wanted to know what they meant by signing off like that. I took an inference that seemed unusual and perhaps mistaken, so I wanted clarification.
  - FrustratedMonky 3y ago
    In the Moloch essay, there are several examples of 'capitalism' or 'libertarianism' that make the point that there is such a constant drive to cut costs, that humans will destroy themselves. And this drive is "Moloch", we are it, and also subject to it. So to me Boeing is just another example in a long line of corporations just doing what corporations do, cut costs, no matter what the impact. It sounds too blatant, who would consciously want to kill people to save a few pennies. But what actually happens is just organizational, everyone has a budget to hit, there are layers and layers of middle managers that are getting squeezed, and they start cutting corners. No single corner seems that bad. But it is a constant slow progression towards disaster. A thousand cuts. Some 'common joe manager' that has a kid in collage, a mortgage, and his boss is breathing down his neck, so he cuts a corner. -- But the problem is, everyone has a boss, no one is free, the entire organization/system is the beast, but we also comprise the beast. https://slatestarcodex.com/2014/07/30/meditations-on-moloch/ https://slatestarcodex.com/2014/07/30/meditations-on-moloch/
    - maxbond 3y ago
      Thanks for clarifying, I had taken the wrong idea.